This picture of Israeli soldiers smiling for a selfie in front of a destroyed Gaza...

[changefromhr]

I know there are lots of pictures. I try to avoid looking as its just so awful but this one couldn't be avoided.

How sickening that the soldiers can smile and act so happy in front of all that destruction.

This is just another picture, from the thousands, that shows how the Palestinians and their lives and homes are seen as worthless.

@Dibilnik
What strikes me as antisemitic is a thread like this, the whole purpose of which seems to be to dehumanise Israelis.

Posters are not dehumanising Israelis but highlighting the dehumanisation of the Palestinians. They are commenting on the behaviours and actions of the IDF as an army (apparently the most moral one at that), not the Israeli people as a whole. Please don't confuse the two and scream out anti semitism.

Edited as I was meant to tag @Dibilnik and quote the post I was commenting on.

I take it, then, that you don't have any particular thoughts on why people are behaving like this, other than blind support for 'your team'?

And why would a thread like the one you suggested be pointless and offensive?

Also, why would you think I wouldn't condemn photos of people celebrating the Hamas attacks?

Also, why would you think I wouldn't condemn photos of people celebrating the Hamas attacks?

Exactly this.

Absolutely bizarre to assume they because people criticise the Israeli government and IDF that they wouldn't also find pictures of people celebrating Israeli murders to be disgusting and morally reprehensible.

This shouldn't be a 'pick a side and blindly support them' thing.

As I keep saying, it's perfectly possible to believe both the Israeli government and military leaders are behaving in an abhorrent way and believe Hamas are too.

I'm staggered anyone at this point can continue to defend the behaviour of the Israeli government and IDF.

A population is being starved to death. Thousands of children are dying a slow, painful death while fearing for their lives in other ways too. It's unspeakably cruel.

The fact 7/10 was also unspeakably cruel doesn't change that.

I'll ignore the spiteful comment in your first paragraph ("My team" indeed, oh dear 🤦‍♀️...)

A thread about crowds of Gazans celebrating the 7 October attacks would be pointless and offensive because it would invite extrapolation, just as you are doing here by talking about "the IDF" based on a social media post.

(Incidentally, when such photos and videos were shared at the time, condemnation was rather faint; the MN response was largely "Ah yes, but Israel was asking for it.")

Maybe I missed it, but I am not aware of another war where the actions of an army were picked over in such intimate detail, with individual behaviours assessed as though they're a social worker on probation. Where the entire focus is on the suffering they are inflicting, without any acknowledgement of that nation's own deep and ongoing trauma.

That's what strikes me as antisemitic, but I'm beginning to realise that it's probably more to do with people having too much time on their hands and an echo chamber on Insta.

You really do seem to be viewing this as something where someone 'picks a side' to support. This isn't football. These are people's lives and deaths. (You also appear to have missed the '...', indicating that this is how you are coming across as viewing this conflict).

It's not new to express views or even criticism of either the actions of military forces in conflicts, or people's posts on social media. This isn't the first conflict in the world where people have looked at the publicly visible actions of a military force and expressed concerns.

It may be more obvious in this particular situation because social media is being weaponised to build up division, incite others to join in with oppression and violence, and to spread hate and prejudice, to a greater level than in previous decades. But it isn't even the first conflict this decade to create debate on social media and to use it as a tool.

Do you have any compassion for the deep and ongoing trauma being experienced in Palestine? Because if you do, you may wish to reflect on why that isn't being expressed in any of your posts. Quite a few people on here are able to say that the actions of both Hamas and the IDF/Israeli government have been horrific. But you have expressed that you consider it anti-semitic to object to the horrific things happening to people in Palestine, and only acceptable to have compassion for people in Israel. Why is that?

Why do you consider it anti-semitic for someone to say they object to the losses of tens of thousands of lives, the traumatic injuring of tens of thousands more, the orphaning of children, etc?

No, this certainly isn't football. And I can see that you are sincerely unaware that the running commentaries and judgements you are demanding might come across as sanctimonious and offensive. Enjoy setting the world to rights!

What running commentaries?

In the middle of discussion, people exchange opinions, sometimes ask other people about their opinions. That's... how discussions work.

Sometimes, when people say things that don't make sense or seem offensive, people ask what was meant, or ask why. That's, again, how discussions work.

I think it's fairly predictable that, if you post things saying it's unacceptable to object to horrible things happening to one group of people but not another, or unacceptable to criticise the actions of one military force in a conflict but not another, you're going to get people asking why.

Really? If you had read Scirocco's posts you would know that she has been extremely measured and conciliatory in her tone. Her background is that of someone who has/is experiencing the loss of loved ones in Gaza. I, personally, wouldn't be able to contain my rage. I greatly respect her for this.
I am also aware that Scirocco does not need me to speak on her behalf but when I see misrepresentation of someone's character, I will challenge it again and again.

Thank you, @Auvergne63 . I may well not always get it right, in fact I'm sure there are many times I've got things wrong, but I have tried.

Trust me, I really don't know how you can be so calm in the face of such horrors. I can't. Carry on challenging what needs challenging. I will too.

I'm truly sorry for that, @Scirocco . It is a grotesque and tragic situation.

@Dibilnik
Maybe I missed it, but I am not aware of another war where the actions of an army were picked over in such intimate detail, with individual behaviours assessed as though they're a social worker on probation.
I'll ignore the exaggeration here, the posters are in the main reposting IDFs own tweets, posts and pictures if they don't want to be scrutinised maybe they should stop documenting their immoral behaviour for the world to see! There has been a lot of criticism of the Russian army in Ukraine and huge criticism and anger with some American and UK soldiers treatment of Iraqi prisoners I think some soldiers were tried and convicted of war crimes. Big difference with that situation was the their fellow countrymen were the main people criticising their actions. There has also been huge criticism of the British army conduct in Northern Ireland during the troubles. I don't doubt for a minute that their conduct would have been recorded and scrutinised in this way if the internet, social media etc was around.

Where the entire focus is on the suffering they are inflicting, without any acknowledgement of that nation's own deep and ongoing trauma.
No one is suggesting the nation isn't suffering it's own deep trauma but that does not excuse the IDF and Israeli government from criticism of their continued daily actions which are inflicting trauma on Palestinians. They are there to defend Israel not to seek revenge.

That's what strikes me as antisemitic,
Again you are calling people antisemitic for criticising the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government. It is not antisemitic, it is justified criticism no nation state anywhere gets a free pass like that, why should Israel?

Thank you, @Dibilnik

And point taken @Dulra

I don't doubt for a minute that their conduct would have been recorded and scrutinised in this way if the internet, social media etc was around

I'm sure you are right.

Sorry for my clumsy efforts to express an indignation that was probably misplaced.

It’s strange how much some people get more annoyed about posts on here, than children who are being bombed and starved to death.
@Dibilnik what is your personal experience of social media? Has something happened in the past that for some reason has led you to focus your grievances on this issue?
Bit of a cheek saying that the point of this thread is to dehumanise Israeli’s when I gave you an opener to discuss reasons that might have led them to take the photo, all of which were very human. And you could have taken that opportunity to explore them.

@Dibilnik it's absolutely ok to raise concerns about things that might seem prejudiced or unjust, and I hope that we can discuss more things on these boards later. It's only by communication that we all learn from each other.

As mentioned earlier, MN is my only exposure to social media (I don't do Facebook / X / Insta), and found some of the views expressed on here after 7 October profoundly shocking. This has left me more wary and suspicious than I'd normally be.

Re your invitation to "explore", this might sound odd but it just feels wrong for me to speculate on the motives of strangers who are in horrible situations I can't imagine. I'm not saying this to be arsey, and I understand it's something others consider worth discussing. (Nor do I think, of course, that theirs is the only horrible situation to be in! It is all beyond horrible!)

@Dibilnik well I think that when we see somebody behaving in this way it’s a very natural thing to want to understand why, and that it’s good to consider different possible reasons, because it can encourage empathy and alternative ways of looking at the situation. But then I am a curious person, and you are entitled to your own ways and opinion. It did surprise me that you are against the dehumanisation of the people in these pictures, yet you won’t engage in conversations that might help to encourage others to view them differently.

Which is obviously not the same as saying these pictures are OK.

@ConnieCounter
"And it is a genocide."

It's an 'alleged genocide' - the ICJ hasn't ruled yet.

"An entire population is trapped"

Everyone is criticising Israel for sealing the border with Gaza and not sending in fuel and supplies for the duration of the war. But Gaza has TWO borders, the other with Egypt. Why doesn't Egypt open its border to refugees and offer humanitarian support, as Arab countries did during the Syrian civil war?

" is being bombarded"

Firstly, Israel is unique in the emphasis it places on warning civilians to evacuate before an attack. Gazan civilians do have places to go, such as schools, which aren't targeted.

"and starved."

Because Hamas steals Aid

You're 5 months late to the party with those arguments. I'm not going to explain why your arguments are wrong because that's been done ad nauseum on these threads over the months but I disagree with pretty much everything you've said.

If you want to ignore the atrocities that Israel is carrying out then that's your choice. I'm not going to argue with people who justify atrocities against civilians. You're too far gone.

@OneMerryRedSnail schools and hospitals are very much targeted (eg as in @EasterIssland 's post yesterday which included a picture of soldiers posing outside a burning building, which was a Deaf Children's Centre).

The Egypt-Gaza border is a sensitive and complicated issue. I would very much like there to be more options for people to leave, but Egypt is in a difficult situation.

Egypt does not have full control of who can and can't leave via the Rafah crossing, so current agreements mean they can't facilitate free crossings for all who want it.

Additionally, if there were large numbers of refugees crossing into Egypt, there would be a risk of either actually having or being accused of having Hamas or other groups' fighters/agents among those. The Israeli government's stated intention is to destroy Hamas, and they seem very committed to this. Would there be a risk of escalation if there were an allegation that Hamas fighters escaped into Egypt? Is that a risk Egypt would take?

I hope that, if/when there are ground operations to take control of Rafah, Egypt would give people somewhere to run, but Ialso understand that it's a big risk for them to take, unless they can be confident in enough regional and international support to protect their own country.

Sauce for the goose ?
This Arab soldier is holding a destroyed Torah.
I wonder how many bodies are under the rubble of that synagogue?

https://religion.fandom.com/wiki/Hurva_Synagogue?file=Arab_Legion_soldier_in_ruins_of_Hurva.jpg

Disgusting behaviour too, posing on top of what is essentially a mass grave of murdered civilians.

Did you assume that those of us who think the selfie picture of IDF soldiers smiling was disgusting would refuse to condemn a photo of a soldier celebrating the deaths of Jewish people?

I don't understand why you think that.