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Conflict in the Middle East
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39
ConnieCounter · 05/05/2024 16:14

Fantastic analysis if you want the point of view of those who carried out the ethnic cleansing. It's so annoying when you ethnically cleanse a place and they keep moaning about wanting to come back to live on the land they were forcibly removed from.

Alwayslookonthe · 06/05/2024 09:26

racoonsinbins · 05/05/2024 16:04

@Alwayslookonthe I can see your argument to some extent, but how would it work in practice in the current situation? Gaza is more than half destroyed. The West Bank is occupied and being aggressively settled. Are the surrounding countries that host many of the Palestinian refugees just supposed to absorb them without support, even though a huge proportion of their population are already refugees from various conflicts with dwindling international support, and they are experiencing huge unemployment and structural collapse? Any realistic settlement requires the establishment of a safe and autonomous Palestinian state (and I'm aware both sides have been responsible for derailing past attempts) as well as support and a realistic plan for surrounding host countries.

The obvious place to begin with dismantling UNWRA is the Palestinian Authority. UNWRA’s operations should be merged with those of the Palestinian Authority. Donor states could divert all financial support earmarked for running UNWRA schools and hospitals toward the Palestinian Authority. From a practical perspective nothing would change but the sign on the door.

In Jordan, there are 2.2 million refugees registered all of whom are citizens of Jordan - so not actually refugees under the definition used by UNHCR for all other refugees in the world. Most do not use UNWRA services and UNWRA’s budget for Jordan is relatively low, compared to the number of refugees it registers there. There is no reason for UNWRA to operate in Jordan at all. Donor states could directly transfer their aid budgets for UNWRA in Jordan and chart a path for the Jordanian Government to take over to provide the health and school services as it does for all of it’s other citizens.

Syria didn’t grant Palestinian refugees citizenship but allowed them entry into the economy and civil rights on par with Syrian citizens.
After the Syrian war it is highly likely there is only a fraction of the half a million refugees registered by UNWRA are actually residing in Syria. Many fled from the war to other countries and have become citizens of other countries (even though they are still counted on the refugee list in Syria). All those residing in Syria, should be transferred to the care and protection of UNHCR. In doing so, they would become official refugees subject to the protection UNHCR. The funding for UNWRA in Syria would be transferred to UNHCR which would operate in the same manner that it operates with other refugee populations around the world. It would seek and implement individual solutions that would end their refugee status either by becoming full citizens of Syria or resettling elsewhere.

In Lebanon the Palestinian refugees have been treated the worst. Lebanon did not make the Palestinians citizens, they were not integrated into the economy. The Palestinian refugees and their descendants in Lebanon have been prohibited from employment in over twenty professions and their ability to enter and exit the country is highly limited. Around half live in refugee camps and many live in dire poverty. The policy with respect to refugees in Lebanon should be, as with the refugees from Syria to transfer responsibility for Palestinian registered refugees from UNWRA to UNHCR. In 2017 an official census in Lebanon found that the number of registered refugees living there was only one-third of the number in UNWRA’s records. Since the refugee population is much smaller than previously thought it should be easier to find individual solutions for them. UNHCR would advocate to end the discriminatory regime against them in Lebanon, while it would also seek solutions of resettlement in third countries and even attempt to naturalisation in Lebanon.

I will deal with Gaza in another post when I have time.

UNWRA is the ideological backbone of the idea of return. The idea of the ‘right’ to return which the Palestinians do not possess is the crux of the conflict. This has always impeded the 2 state solution idea. Until the Palestinians (and the rest of the Arab states) can agree that the Palestinians should live side by side with Israel not instead of the state of Israel there can be no peace.

Kindatired · 06/05/2024 11:00

So you have a right of return to Israel (“democracy “) if you or your mother are/were the right religion.
But no return and no compensation if you are a Palestinian displaced in 1948 because Israel (“democracy “ makes the laws .
Israel disregards the UN even though it owes its existence to the UN.
The basis for propping up a religious state is the Holocaust which occurred prior to 1948.
The UN General Assembly Resolution 3236, passed on 22 November 1974, declared the right of return to be an "inalienable right". It’s an inalienable right that doesn’t need a specific law.
Furthermore, dialogue is essential for political solutions and denying the right of return is not a good starting point because it denies the 1948 Nakba which is the reason that right of return is being pursued in the first place.
Anyone who denies the validity of the state of Israel to exist as a Jewish state would get jumped on with cries of anti-semitism but it seems ok to deny the Nakba or suggest that people who were displaced forcibly within living memory should be compensated by the wealthy state that is responsible. The wealthy state that spends billions of US dollars killing those they dispossessed.
Parity of esteem is essential for peaceful coexistence, be it in a single state or a two state solution or a multistate solution.
And it’s completely unreasonable to try to make the Palestinians pay for the actions of other Middle Eastern and North African countries who expelled Jewish communities- let’s just pre-empt that justification because it’s a bit whataboutery we’ve just heard too often..
Undermining UNWRA is effectively denying the right of return and handing over to settlers what rightfully belongs to Palestinians and this will not lead to peace.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236 - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3236

Alwayslookonthe · 06/05/2024 23:10

@Kindatired
So you have a right of return to Israel (“democracy “) if you or your mother are/were the right religion.
But no return and no compensation if you are a Palestinian displaced in 1948 because Israel (“democracy “ makes the laws .

You are mixing up the Law of Return, an actual law, made by Israel - a sovereign country - and the so called ‘right’ of return. The Palestinians possess no such right. Regarding compensation, Palestinians were offered a $30 billion package in the 2000 peace negotiations. Arafat rejected the deal.

Israel disregards the UN even though it owes its existence to the UN.
The basis for propping up a religious state is the Holocaust which occurred prior to 1948.
The UN General Assembly Resolution 3236, passed on 22 November 1974, declared the right of return to be an "inalienable right". It’s an inalienable right that doesn’t need a specific law.

The UN General Assembly’s powers are limited, it cannot confer legal or binding rights. Therefore, the resolution is purely advisory it does not and cannot create a ‘right’ to anything including ‘return’.
The recommendations that were put forward to the Security Council in June 1976 by the committee set up from resolution 3236 including the ‘right’ to return were rejected.

Furthermore, dialogue is essential for political solutions and denying the right of return is not a good starting point because it denies the 1948 Nakba which is the reason that right of return is being pursued in the first place.

Highlighting that the Palestinians do not possess a ‘right’ of return is exactly a good starting point. It was a deal breaker in the previous negotiations of 2000. It doesn’t deny that Palestinians were expelled from the land. There is no International law that requires Israel to allow Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to Israel. No treaties or binding UN resolutions were violated by Israel's expulsion of Palestinians during the 1948 conflict and none provide a right to return for Palestinian refugees.

Anyone who denies the validity of the state of Israel to exist as a Jewish state would get jumped on with cries of anti-semitism but it seems ok to deny the Nakba or suggest that people who were displaced forcibly within living memory should be compensated by the wealthy state that is responsible. The wealthy state that spends billions of US dollars killing those they dispossessed.

A slightly confused argument. I mentioned in a previous post that 700,000 Palestinians were expelled (some fled) in 1948. This was not extraordinary at that time. Just like the 10 million ethnic Germans expelled from Eastern Europe did not have the right to return to their birthplaces and very much wanted to return.

Parity of esteem is essential for peaceful coexistence, be it in a single state or a two state solution or a multistate solution.

Mental health is very important on both sides, I think the Israelis would reject a single state for their mental health (probably physical health as well).

And it’s completely unreasonable to try to make the Palestinians pay for the actions of other Middle Eastern and North African countries who expelled Jewish communities- let’s just pre-empt that justification because it’s a bit whataboutery we’ve just heard too often..

Thank you for bringing attention to other communities being expelled from their birthplaces too in the 1940s and 1950s. The expulsion of the Palestinians was - as mentioned before - nothing extraordinary to the times.

Undermining UNWRA is effectively denying the right of return and handing over to settlers what rightfully belongs to Palestinians and this will not lead to peace.

UNWRA is the ideological backbone of the so called right to return. Palestinians do not possess a right to return to Israel. For too long advocates for Palestine have nourished, indulged and sustained the Palestinians to keep fighting for an annihilationist cause, rather than moving on and creating a prosperous lives for themselves.

Kindatired · 07/05/2024 23:04

ok .
-So Israel is a state so they get to make up their own laws because they have self determination. They make up a law that people who share their religion can come and live there regardless of when their ancestors left. Nice.

-But Palestinians were kicked out of their homes ( it’s ok because Hitler did it too and everyone was doing it) and everyone was doing it at the time so that’s ok- “nothing extraordinary to the times”. They were offered 30billion and it wasn’t enough. This doesn’t seem like a good deal to me, land is finite and it clearly wasn’t attractive enough to them. I’ve done lots of good property deals btw. This is how it works-in a deal, one part makes an offer and the other chooses to accept. If it’s not accepted, you either abandon the deal or make a better offer. I have kept a statute acre of my ancestral land- it doesn’t make financial sense but after 160 years of back and forth to England and New York, fighting the British for it and eventually getting the absentee English landlord out, no, I don’t think I’d sell it to some Israeli for 30billion .
-An inalienable right is a right that cannot be taken away from you- it doesn’t need a law. If the Palestinians had a state of course, they could make up a law. You are obviously viewing this from the pro-Israeli perspective rather than an internationalist perspective. I think you should declare your intersets here. I’m not Israeli or Palestinian , nor Muslim nor Jewish. I have one half Jewish cousin . No Muslim relatives or close associates in business.
I draw your attention to the following information about the right of return which is from Wikipedia but referenced
“The right is formulated in several modern treaties and conventions, most notably in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the 1948 Fourth Geneva Convention. Legal scholars have argued that one or more of these international human rights instruments have attained the status of customary international lawand that the right of return is therefore binding on non-signatories to these conventions.[4][5]”

Finally the people of Northern Ireland, Rwanda and South Africa peacefully coexist with their former adversaries so a single state solution to this type of conflict is not impossible. But Israel has never made any meaningful concessions in relation to land-the opposite in fact.

International human rights instruments - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_human_rights_instruments

Kindatired · 08/05/2024 08:21

Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I’ve held a baby dying of starvation within hours of her death- that’s my secret agenda. But who cares about the Palestinian civilians being starved? Cearly not Israel. These children are just unfortunate by products of war that generate “heart jerking headlines” and the answer is to control the information flow.

EasterIssland · 08/05/2024 22:20

Settlers trying to storm urnwa hq in Jerusalem

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788177782905745824

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788177782905745824

OP posts:
ConnieCounter · 08/05/2024 22:44

EasterIssland · 08/05/2024 22:20

Settlers trying to storm urnwa hq in Jerusalem

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788177782905745824

UNWRA staff are literally risking their lives by staying in Rafah to try to help their communities which are without hospitals, and almost out of food, fuel, water etc whilst being attacked by tanks and bombs whilst these wasters do this. They aren't fit to lace their boots.

EasterIssland · 09/05/2024 23:35

Fire has been set next to the urnwa hq in East Jerusalem

https://twitter.com/UNLazzarini/status/1788643951945150790

https://twitter.com/UNLazzarini/status/1788643951945150790

OP posts:
10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 10/05/2024 03:11

EasterIssland · 09/05/2024 23:35

Fire has been set next to the urnwa hq in East Jerusalem

https://twitter.com/UNLazzarini/status/1788643951945150790

There must be a Hamas tunnel underneath it! /s Seriously, what is going on?!

Alwayslookonthe · 10/05/2024 08:29

Why is UNWRA a problem in East Jerusalem?
Let’s explore why UNWRA are in East Jerusalem.

After the six day war Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem and its surroundings, applying law and administration to these areas. Among the annexed Palestinian villages was Shuafat refugee camp. As a result, Shuafat’s residents effectively fulfilled their demand of return.

Now as legal residents of Israel they have the right to settle anywhere they want in the country, including the town they or their ancestors came from. Furthermore, they can apply for citizenship on the grounds of proving their desire “to live at peace with their neighbours” the complete fulfilment of the Palestinians own extreme interpretation of Resolution 194.

The refugees who have become residents of Israel have acquired in practice the ability to return. Given this, UNWRA could have announced that it had no more business within the boundaries of Jerusalem and refused to register the refugees in East Jerusalem and their tens of thousands of descendants as refugees.

Yet UNWRA made no such announcement and the inhabitants of Shuafat refugee camp, who for the most part were born after 1948 and after 1967 annexation of Jerusalem, remain registered Palestinian refugees.

So…
UNRWA registers residents of Israel as refugees

UNWRA registers 2.2 million Jordanian citizens as refugees

UNWRA registers Palestinians who live in the area they call Palestine and seek recognition of, as refugees

UNWRA has recently been in the news for allegedly selling aid in Gaza. All ‘lies’ of course. Shush…🤫

UNWRA has recently advised that Palestinians in Gaza can’t afford to buy the free aid that is in Gaza. Again, shush… 🤫

UNWRA needs to be defunded/dismantled, not because UNWRA employees may have been stealing aid to sell on to their fellow Gazans, not because some UNWRA employees may have participated in the massacre on October 7th, but because UNWRA has registered millions of people as refugees, over the decades, who do not meet the basic criteria applied to EVERY other group of refugees in the world.

Had the rest of the world been recognised as refugees in the same way as UNWRA does for the Palestinians the (relative) peace that has marked much of the world since WW2 would have been replaced by constant war.

EasterIssland · 10/05/2024 08:33

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/unrwa-chief-temporarily-shuts-east-jerusalem-hq-after-extremists-set-fire-to-perimeter/

UNRWA chief temporarily shuts East Jerusalem HQ after extremists set fire to perimeter

OP posts:
EasterIssland · 10/05/2024 08:35

Alwayslookonthe · 10/05/2024 08:29

Why is UNWRA a problem in East Jerusalem?
Let’s explore why UNWRA are in East Jerusalem.

After the six day war Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem and its surroundings, applying law and administration to these areas. Among the annexed Palestinian villages was Shuafat refugee camp. As a result, Shuafat’s residents effectively fulfilled their demand of return.

Now as legal residents of Israel they have the right to settle anywhere they want in the country, including the town they or their ancestors came from. Furthermore, they can apply for citizenship on the grounds of proving their desire “to live at peace with their neighbours” the complete fulfilment of the Palestinians own extreme interpretation of Resolution 194.

The refugees who have become residents of Israel have acquired in practice the ability to return. Given this, UNWRA could have announced that it had no more business within the boundaries of Jerusalem and refused to register the refugees in East Jerusalem and their tens of thousands of descendants as refugees.

Yet UNWRA made no such announcement and the inhabitants of Shuafat refugee camp, who for the most part were born after 1948 and after 1967 annexation of Jerusalem, remain registered Palestinian refugees.

So…
UNRWA registers residents of Israel as refugees

UNWRA registers 2.2 million Jordanian citizens as refugees

UNWRA registers Palestinians who live in the area they call Palestine and seek recognition of, as refugees

UNWRA has recently been in the news for allegedly selling aid in Gaza. All ‘lies’ of course. Shush…🤫

UNWRA has recently advised that Palestinians in Gaza can’t afford to buy the free aid that is in Gaza. Again, shush… 🤫

UNWRA needs to be defunded/dismantled, not because UNWRA employees may have been stealing aid to sell on to their fellow Gazans, not because some UNWRA employees may have participated in the massacre on October 7th, but because UNWRA has registered millions of people as refugees, over the decades, who do not meet the basic criteria applied to EVERY other group of refugees in the world.

Had the rest of the world been recognised as refugees in the same way as UNWRA does for the Palestinians the (relative) peace that has marked much of the world since WW2 would have been replaced by constant war.

After the six day war Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem and its surroundings, applying law and administration to these areas.

Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered a part of the West Bank and, therefore, of the Palestinian territories

OP posts:
Scirocco · 10/05/2024 08:35

@Alwayslookonthe and do any of those reported concerns justify attempts to set their headquarters on fire?

I didn't realise it was ok to commit arson if it's against people and organisations with which one disagrees.

Alwayslookonthe · 10/05/2024 09:06

EasterIssland · 10/05/2024 08:35

After the six day war Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem and its surroundings, applying law and administration to these areas.

Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered a part of the West Bank and, therefore, of the Palestinian territories

For the purposes of return it does not matter whether one thinks that Israel’s annexation of East Jerusalem and the surrounding areas are legitimate or not. The refugees of Shuafat - legal residents of Israel - have the right to settle anywhere they want to in the country, including the town or village their ancestors came from. They have returned! However according to UNWRA they are still refugees.

PeasfullPerson · 10/05/2024 13:36

Alwayslookonthe · 10/05/2024 08:29

Why is UNWRA a problem in East Jerusalem?
Let’s explore why UNWRA are in East Jerusalem.

After the six day war Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem and its surroundings, applying law and administration to these areas. Among the annexed Palestinian villages was Shuafat refugee camp. As a result, Shuafat’s residents effectively fulfilled their demand of return.

Now as legal residents of Israel they have the right to settle anywhere they want in the country, including the town they or their ancestors came from. Furthermore, they can apply for citizenship on the grounds of proving their desire “to live at peace with their neighbours” the complete fulfilment of the Palestinians own extreme interpretation of Resolution 194.

The refugees who have become residents of Israel have acquired in practice the ability to return. Given this, UNWRA could have announced that it had no more business within the boundaries of Jerusalem and refused to register the refugees in East Jerusalem and their tens of thousands of descendants as refugees.

Yet UNWRA made no such announcement and the inhabitants of Shuafat refugee camp, who for the most part were born after 1948 and after 1967 annexation of Jerusalem, remain registered Palestinian refugees.

So…
UNRWA registers residents of Israel as refugees

UNWRA registers 2.2 million Jordanian citizens as refugees

UNWRA registers Palestinians who live in the area they call Palestine and seek recognition of, as refugees

UNWRA has recently been in the news for allegedly selling aid in Gaza. All ‘lies’ of course. Shush…🤫

UNWRA has recently advised that Palestinians in Gaza can’t afford to buy the free aid that is in Gaza. Again, shush… 🤫

UNWRA needs to be defunded/dismantled, not because UNWRA employees may have been stealing aid to sell on to their fellow Gazans, not because some UNWRA employees may have participated in the massacre on October 7th, but because UNWRA has registered millions of people as refugees, over the decades, who do not meet the basic criteria applied to EVERY other group of refugees in the world.

Had the rest of the world been recognised as refugees in the same way as UNWRA does for the Palestinians the (relative) peace that has marked much of the world since WW2 would have been replaced by constant war.

Any thoughts on the fire?

Are you implying this sort of extreme act is justified?

Kindatired · 10/05/2024 13:42

Ah yes, the only democracy in the Middle East, where the rule of law is applied selectively or not at all when it comes to settler violence

No-one will notice anyway as the press are suppressed, either voluntarily or involuntarily.

Alwayslookonthe · 12/05/2024 09:49

PeasfullPerson · 10/05/2024 13:36

Any thoughts on the fire?

Are you implying this sort of extreme act is justified?

If there is evidence the Israeli citizens started the fire, they should be prosecuted for criminal damage. Protests should not include criminal action, in Israel, the UK, the US or anywhere else in the world.
In the UK Palestine activists smashed a lorry into a drone factory in Leicester and ripped apart its roof a few days ago. All criminal action should be condemned.

Any comment on UNWRA registering 5.9 million refugees, the majority of whom are not refugees on account of being either residents of Israel or a citizen of another country?

Scirocco · 12/05/2024 09:57

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68978985

This drone factory?

The van damaged a gate and some people climbed onto the building.

They've been arrested and charged with criminal damage and public order offences.

It's illegal and should not be supported. It's hardly smashing a lorry into a building and ripping its roof apart, though.

UAV Tactical Systems

Arrests after gates damaged at drone factory protest

Seven people are detained after a van damages gates and protesters climb onto the factory roof.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68978985

Alwayslookonthe · 12/05/2024 10:40

Scirocco · 12/05/2024 09:57

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68978985

This drone factory?

The van damaged a gate and some people climbed onto the building.

They've been arrested and charged with criminal damage and public order offences.

It's illegal and should not be supported. It's hardly smashing a lorry into a building and ripping its roof apart, though.

Members of the action group smashed a lorry through the fences around the site, in Leicestershire's Meridian Business Park, in Braunstone Town, Palestine Action said. Others in the group have scaled the building and are currently occupying the roof.
Tools have been used to break through the roof, Palestine Action said. It added that this was done to “expose the contents inside the murder factory”.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/palestine-supporters-smash-through-drone-9270651

Crime latest news - LeicestershireLive

Crime news from the Leicester area. Read the latest police appeals and crime stories, along with in-depth features. The area Leicestershire Police is responsible for covers more than 2,500 square kilometres and has a population of nearly one million. S...

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/all-about/crime

PeasfullPerson · 13/05/2024 21:36

Alwayslookonthe · 12/05/2024 09:49

If there is evidence the Israeli citizens started the fire, they should be prosecuted for criminal damage. Protests should not include criminal action, in Israel, the UK, the US or anywhere else in the world.
In the UK Palestine activists smashed a lorry into a drone factory in Leicester and ripped apart its roof a few days ago. All criminal action should be condemned.

Any comment on UNWRA registering 5.9 million refugees, the majority of whom are not refugees on account of being either residents of Israel or a citizen of another country?

You seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding UNWRA. Can I please ask for clarification these people are actually recorded as refugees and not registered without receiving refuge status, so that they can receive UNWRA services under their other eligible groups?

Also, even if they are registered as refuges, I’m not sure your comparisons are with WW2 are particularly relevant. It’s a very different scenario.

Why do you think refugee status is causing conflict? How much weight do you think this factor has, when also considering things like the occupation and inhumane treatment of the people of Palestine, by Israel?

Do you believe that those who live in Palestine, particularly Gaza, during this latest offensive should in the future registered under a special group, so that if they survive they can at some point in the future be eligible for restorative action and support?

Link to UNWRA registration and eligibility document for anyone who would like to read it …

https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/2010011995652.pdf

PS I don’t support violent action.

Dulra · 20/05/2024 11:56

Was searching for something online and cane across this UN press release on UNWRA, an interesting read

press.un.org/en/2024/sc15668.doc.htm

anotherlevel · 26/05/2024 21:41

TEL AVIV, Sunday, May 26, 2024 (WAFA) - The Israeli Knesset's so-called Ministerial Committee for Legislation today approved draft bills that aim to sever relations between Israel and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), and designate it as a 'terrorist organization'.2 hours ago

english.wafa.ps › Details
Knesset's Ministerial Committee for Legislation approves draft bills ...

Israel have now bombed an UNWRA centre for the displaced in Rafah. The scenes that are coming out of Rafah are frightening and something worse than a horror movie.

ConnieCounter · 26/05/2024 22:06

The IDF are the only terror organisation in that equation. The scenes from Rafah are worse than anyone's worst nightmare.

10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 26/05/2024 22:23

anotherlevel · 26/05/2024 21:41

TEL AVIV, Sunday, May 26, 2024 (WAFA) - The Israeli Knesset's so-called Ministerial Committee for Legislation today approved draft bills that aim to sever relations between Israel and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), and designate it as a 'terrorist organization'.2 hours ago

english.wafa.ps › Details
Knesset's Ministerial Committee for Legislation approves draft bills ...

Israel have now bombed an UNWRA centre for the displaced in Rafah. The scenes that are coming out of Rafah are frightening and something worse than a horror movie.

Israel has a habit of doing this to relief organisations it doesn't like. They designated Defence for Children as a terrorist organisation for investigating the rape of a 13 year old Palestinian boy.

https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1731796063265177646

x.com

https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1731796063265177646

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