Standing up for Israel

[Fizzadora]

So, they have got to MN now too.
I just managed to read the previous post before it got deleted for being inflammatory. Not to me it wasn't but then I don't support terrorists.
Many, many people do stand for Israel and not for Hamas (and by definition their supporters; you know who you are).

It's easy to not see things when it's not your loved ones being targeted. I sometimes miss Islamophobic comments on here because it's not something I have to think about very often as it doesn't affect me personally. But I see all the antisemitic and anti-Israeli comments because they affect me by virtue of having lots of family in Israel. So your impression isn't the full picture. It would be impossible for it to be.

And by the way, I report the islamophobic comments I see on here as well. My point is that I don't see them all because I don't know the intricacies of Islamophobia. Like yesterday when someone, possibly on this thread but might have been another, pointed out that writing "Moslem" is offensive to some Muslims. That's not something I ever would've thought about! I wanted to ask more questions about it but wasn't sure if offense would have been taken be my even asking so decided against it.

We don't see what we don't know.

Why was this message deleted?

@Humdingerydoo that was me about the 'Moslem' vs Muslim spelling. I'm happy to discuss most things about faith and culture, being curious about each other and our differences is important! I don't think many people would take offence to an honestly asked question. I'm quite busy today but if you do want to ask anything, either @ me or PM me and I can respond when I'm free.

Interesting read



Zionism includes different schools of thought, but it’s the nationalist kind Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spearheads. Oded Balilty/AP

This is because of a combination of the failure to transition the West Bank and Gaza into a Palestinian state, and the contradiction of freedom for Israelis and statelessness for Palestinians.

Although the political power of liberal and Labor Zionism in the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament) has waned, it is certainly alive and well in Israeli civil society. For example, B'Tselem, the legacy of left wing Zionist Yossi Sarid, has been very active in documenting instances of apartheid and settler violence in the West Bank.

In short, Zionism does not preclude someone from being critical of the policies of the Israeli government.

However, for many nationalist, conservative religious and revisionist Zionists, Palestinian self-determination anywhere west of the River Jordan is a direct threat to the Jewish state. They, therefore, do not support Palestinian independence.

This form of Zionism has become the dominant form in Israeli politics today.

Under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this approach has transcended rhetoric and become legislation in Israel’s Nation State Law of 2018, which legally enshrines unique Jewish sovereignty in the state of Israel and settlement as a “national value”.

It is this kind of Zionism that has informed Israel’s response to Palestinian action - both political and violent - for decades.

It has attempted to justify the blockade of Gaza, the forcible transfer of Palestinians in the West Bank, bans on political speech, mandatory detention without trial, and disproportionate violence as policy solutions to Israeli-Palestinian tensions.

Yes @Mercurial123 , so don't say you're anti-zionist, say you're against those forms of it. I mean, I am too!

It was mostly just a question about my Iraqi family. They mostly write "Moslem" but I think that's because they're arabic speakers (English is their fourth language, after Arabic, Hebrew and French) and write in English phonetically if that makes sense. Would that be considered offensive or would people understand that there is no offense intended? It's admittedly not something they write often, but I have noticed it as I remember wondering why they spelled it like that. They would be horrified if they found out they'd been inadvertently insulting people.

@Humdingerydoo I personally wouldn't find it offensive at all. It's just the way they spell it in their culture.

@Humdingerydoo tbh I did bristle a little when I saw it spelt as 'moslem' but I didn't want to say anything incase it came across as nit picking in a already tense environment, although @Scirocco did so respectfully.
For me personally it's too close to 'mozlem' which is often used in a offensive way.

And in terms of your original point on anti-semitism, you are correct that some things might be offensive that others might not know or realise (myself included) and should be pointed out respectfully to avoid it being repeated.

Education is key, growing up I didn't learn much about Judaism in school or many other religions despite going to a mainstream public school they were just very briefly touched upon. I have learnt alot more about it on mumsnet!
Although I'm glad to see that my DD who is only in year one in primary school is learning about it. She came home one day singing shabbat shalom over and over again which is how I realised 😅 and when I asked her other questions I was impressed with how much she knew.

Also sorry I realise I'm probably waffling off topic on here so il stop now

I guess everyone is different on what they find offensive and what they don't.
Out of interest @Parkingt111 and feel free to not answer, what religion are you?
I'm Muslim myself and I would have just assumed they misspelt muslim. I know in some regions they pronounce words differently to the others and may just be spelling it phonetically.

@Humdingerydoo I think it comes down to context. If I knew someone using that spelling was from a culture or country in which that was an accepted spelling (got to love transliteration-related spelling issues - as an aside, my DH and I both have names that can't be spelled precisely in each other's first languages!), then I wouldn't take offence. However, in the UK, that spelling is most commonly associated with people from the far-right who use it in a derogatory way. The way that spelling is pronounced in English is different from Muslim, and is closer to 'mozlem' as @Parkingt111 said.

It's easy to not see things when it's not your loved ones being targeted. I sometimes miss Islamophobic comments on here because it's not something I have to think about very often as it doesn't affect me personally. But I see all the antisemitic and anti-Israeli comments because they affect me by virtue of having lots of family in Israel. So your impression isn't the full picture. It would be impossible for it to be

Okay, fair point.* *

Thank you very much to everyone for answering my question! There honestly is no way I could have known about it if it weren't for people actively telling me. Hopefully others will read your posts and learn from it too!

I also didn’t know about those spellings of Muslim being offensive, so I appreciate learning that. I’ve never seen it written with a z so would have just assumed it was a mistake!

to add, for religious Jews Zionism has a meaning separate from political Zionism - it refers to our eternal longing for our return to our homeland, the coming of the messiah and to rebuild the third temple. It’s central to our belief system, we pray towards Jerusalem three times a day, and our longing to return to Zion is referred to in our daily prayers and blessings over and over again, prayers said by generations of Jews, (for about 2500 years ) - since the destruction of the second temple.

political Zionism is a secular construct.
I believe this is the reason behind why some ( fringe) sects of ultra Orthodox Jews are extremely against secular Zionism and the establishment of the secular state of Israel because they believe that the messiah will come first and then we will return to our homeland. They still pray to return home to Israel daily though.

to be a religious Jew is to be inextricably a Zionist in some form, regardless of opinions on the political structures/ Israeli government/ state of Israel.

Religion and faith create awfully complex rules for people to live by. I include all faiths including my own in that statement. I am a lapsed catholic but was raised with quite strict Catholic parents

@anotherlevel yes I am

Why is it always Catholics that are lapsed? I've never heard of a lapsed Protestant.

No idea, sorry 😬I really don’t know much about Christianity at all. I’d make a guess it’s different given the belief in Jesus as the Messiah/ son of Gd?

Catholic guilt maybe 🤔 you need to remind yourself you're a lapsed catholic so you don't feel guilty eating meat on a Friday and not going to mass on a Sunday or not getting my ashes tomorrow on Ash Wednesday

I just wanted to add one thing about the whole spelling of Muslim conversation from earlier - I think it's important to point out that it's very possible that Hebrew-speakers might write Moslem in English as the Hebrew alphabet and sounds don't always directly translate to the English alphabet. I would hope that people would take that into consideration and not necessarily assume offence. My Arabic surname is spelled completely differently by the UK part of the family to how the Israeli side spell it. An exclusively English-speaking outsider wouldn't even recognise them as being the same name 🙃

I really like the approach taken by @Scirocco of educating rather than automatically assuming offence. Thank you for taking your time to do so.

What is a lapsed Catholic if you don't mind me asking, I've never heard of it before.

@Humdingerydoo I wouldn't assume offence unless I knew it was being said to offend and thanks for pointing that out.
Yes as you say even in Arabic there are different dialects which affect the spellings especially phonetically when transliterated into a different language
I know around four Ayshas who all spell their names differently in English