Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

ICJ doesn’t prosecute war criminals, it settles disputes between nations that have signed up to the Geneva Convention. You have quoted a portion of the preliminary measures the court instructed Israel to do. The court case is South Africa vs Israel and is still ongoing by the way, the ruling Friday was a preliminary ruling that supported South Africa on all counts except for the sort of preliminary measures to be invoked on Israel.

There was no ruling for Hamas, as they are not a party to the court case. The ICJ has no jurisdiction over Hamas because they are not a nation state that has signed up to the Geneva convention. The ICJ statement on release of the hostages was a humanitarian call, not an enforceable ruling.

Israel is currently giving much aid to Gaza to improve the humanitarian situation,

The last estimate I saw said that Israel are allowing less than 10% of the aid needed into Gaza. Israel isn’t providing much, if any, aid itself, it is controlling the entry of all the aid given by other countries either directly or via UNRWA.

Since the ICJ ruling, Israel has taken action against the Israeli protesters that have been blocking the humanitarian aid at Kerem Shalom. Shocking I know, that people are protesting feeding starving children, or sending in medical supplies so children don’t have to have amputations with zero pain relief or anaesthetic.

There was a war on Oct 6th, there has been a war on Palestinians for 75 years. Over 7000 men, women and children held in Israeli prisons without trail or access to legal representation. Children tortured and both men and women raped and beaten regularly. There might not have been violence for Israeli citizens, but there certainly has been in Gaza, in the West Bank, and in East Jerusalem for Palestinians citizens.

@Livinginanotherworld There has been aggression against the Jews way before that , starting in 1930.

In 1930, Sheikh Izz ad-Din al Quassam arrived in Palestine from Syria, then part of the French-ruled Mandate for Syria and Palestine and organised and established the Black Hand, an anti-Zionist and anti-British militant organisation. He recruited and arranged military training for peasants, and by 1935 he had enlisted between 200 and 800 men.
They used bombs and firearms against Zionist settlers and vandalised settlers' orchards and British-built railway lines. In November 1935, two of his men engaged in a firefight with a Palestine Police patrol hunting fruit thieves and a policeman was killed. Following the incident, British colonial police launched a search and surrounded al-Qassam in a cave . In the ensuing battle, al-Qassam was killed.
The death of al-Qassam on 20 November 1935 generated widespread outrage in the Arab community. Huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later, in April 1936, the Arab national general strike broke out.
The strike lasted until October 1936, instigated by the Arab Higher Committee, headed by Amin al-Husseini.
During the summer of that year, thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed. Jewish civilians were attacked and killed, and some Jewish communities, fled to safer areas.
The violence abated for about a year while the British sent the Peel Commission to investigate.

During the first stages of the Arab Revolt, due to rivalry between the clans of al-Husseini and Nashashibi among the Palestinian Arabs, Raghib Nashashibi was forced to flee to Egypt after several assassination attempts ordered by Amin al-Hussein,

The Arabs couldn't agree among themselves it seems.

@Livinginanotherworld "There was a war on Oct 6th, there has been a war on Palestinians for 75 years."

75 years ago Gaza was under the control of Egypt (until 1969) the West Bank was under the control of Jordan (until 1969)

So if Egypt and Jordan were "waging war" on Palestinians during that time-frame it was nothing to do with Israel.

Maybe if Palestinians have a beef with Egypt & Jordan they should take it up with them??

@MercanDede "The ICJ statement on release of the hostages was a humanitarian call, not an enforceable ruling."

None of the ICJ Rulings are enforceable (which IMO makes the whole Court process a waste of time).

And just to add some footage of them saying they will block and not allow aid into Gaza:

www.instagram.com/reel/C2sE7saO8Ks/?igsh=d3VsejR6b2UyNHE5

@niceandnew

These are desperate people caught between their own uncaring government and psychopathic terrorists - if Hamas start going hungry they won't be giving their last crust to the poor hostages who will starve first

The Times of Israel reports a statement from the Tzav 9 organization who are behind the protests. It said:

''There is no logic in having the trucks enter directly into the hands of Hamas terrorists. We are prepared for this trying time together with thousands of supporters who demand that the supplies to Hamas be halted. No aid should pass until the last of the hostages returns.''

I don't even know where to start with what I read on this thread.
I cannot understand how anyone can defend the slaughter of thousands of Palestinian civilians, the withdrawing of anything which is needed to maintain life and the utter destruction of the infrastructure of Gaza in the name of self defence. 07/10 was vile. What is happening now is vile.
To say that Israel is doing a good deed to the Gazan civilians by killing them at the same time as Hamas is, well, I have no words.
Using the term "The Arabs" is repugnant. Would the poster be using " the Blacks" to describe Afro Caribbeans in the UK?
Finally, they say that a clear conscience makes a soft pillow. How do posters who see no wrong in killing Palestinian civilians by bombing them or starving them sleep at night?

All ICJ rulings are enforceable by the UNSC, if they decide it is necessary after the failure of diplomatic means. The ICJ is the UN court.

Pardon, but you are forgetting East Jerusalem. That is what is meant by war for 75yrs. That the entire time there was war between Israeli and Palestinians in at least one of the occupied territories.

That's not even close to being an equivalent situation, especially since PIRA never had anywhere near the weapons capabilities of Hamas!

If PIRA had that level of capability, the UK military response would have been completely different to what it was during Operation Banner.

The Belfast Agreement was possible because PIRA was defeated. It's that simple. It was enough to do so via intelligence led CHIS and taking PIRAs toughest units out, e.g. Loughgall 1987. It wasn't random that the Security Forces saved the lives of PIRA Commanders such as Gerry Adams, for example.

Too many terrorist ops were being intercepted, most members in prison and a good proportion of them dead.

The Achilles Heel of any terrorist organisation is people. Especially ones as small as PIRA was from 1976 to present day.

PIRA and Hamas may both be terrorist groups, but they have many significant differences between them.

The continuing comparison of the Troubles with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ridiculous and tiring.🤦‍♂️

I saw that too and that is the direct consequence of Israeli politicians inciting genocide by spreading malicious propaganda. The humanitarian aid isn’t for or going to Hamas. We know this because we are outside the media bubble that Israel has created within its own borders.

The fact the protesters believe that it is aid to Hamas is 100% a consequence of the military censor and propaganda machine within Israel that is misinforming its own citizens.

This same propaganda machine had alleged that UNRWA is an arm of Hamas, that every doctor, paramedic, teacher, firefighter are all Hamas terrorists on Hamas payroll. Even the WHO and HRW reports are being spun within Israel as anti-semites who are either complicit with Hamas or are useful idiots being fooled by Hamas.

It was the 1970s-1990s, so no terrorists had the weapons capabilities of terrorists in the 21st century.

Hamas during the same time period as IRA (1980s-1990s) had the same weapons capabilities and were roughly the same size. If the U.K. had done what Israel has done, then likely the IRA would still exist today as a terrorist group and their weapons capabilities would have similarly advanced.

(Hamas weapons capabilities are still 15 years behind that of a modern army)

It’s a better comparison than WWII when the many armies in WWII didn’t have the weapons capabilities of either Hamas/IRA in 1990, or Hamas/Israel today.

The Belfast Agreement was possible because PIRA was defeated.
No, they were not militarily defeated. The British Army came to this conclusion itself in a report, which provides a fascinating insight into British army thinking is available from the Pat Finucane Centre website:
”The British army succeeded in making clear to the Provisional IRA that it could not achieve its objectives through violence although the army did not "win" in any recognisable sense, an internal review of the army's operations in Northern Ireland has concluded.“

”…one of the key reasons the "war" ended was that neither the British army/RUC nor the IRA could defeat each other.

"It should be recognised that the army did not 'win' in any recognisable way; rather it achieved its desired end-state, which allowed a political process to be established without unacceptable levels of intimidation,"

"PIRA developed into what will probably be seen as one of the most effective terrorist organisations in history. Professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient, it conducted a sustained and lethal campaign in Northern Ireland, mainland United Kingdom and on the continent of Europe," the document states.”

A historian’s blog post echoes the British Army’s own analysis:
http://www.judecollins.com/2017/04/undefeated-army-ira-irish-british-peace-process-sionnach-fionn/

You just argued my point that the comparison with PIRA doesn't work since "no terrorists had the weapons capabilities of terrorists in the 21st century". 🤷‍♂️

We don't need to engage in hypotheticals since we know what Operation Banner, Eagle and the other ops did to PIRA over the long run.

Crucially, PIRA never managed to crack the nut of popular support, especially as the SDLP proved there was always another way.

And, no, PIRA couldn't have advanced their weapons capabilities since they had no manufacturing skills of their own. Shipments of weapons from Gaddafi's Libya and from private donors in eastern seaboard United States were ultimately stopped by the American, British and Irish Governments combined. The French too in 1986. Hamas is completely different - when weapons flow from Iran was blocked by Israel and Egypt, they simply learned how to make their own in Gaza.

The Troubles was very, very different to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in every significant way you can think of. That's why it ultimately doesn't work as a comparison and anyone who attempts to do so is creating a false equivalence. Usually done by those who only have surface knowledge.

I've no idea why you're mentioning WW2 to me as I don't use it as a point of attempted comparison either. Again, I would say that comparison also fails, especially as WW2 was a conventional war fought by & against conventional armed forces. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very clearly NOT a conventional war, but is an unconventional, irregular war where a State military is dealing with a non-governmental group widely designated as a terrorist organisation.

Once again, the comparison between PIRA and Hamas FAILS as it is a false equivalence. Very different threat levels involved which means a very different military response is required.

Actually I argued against your point because IRA and Hamas were both active terrorist groups in the 1980s-1990s of roughly the same size, sophistication and with the same weapons capabilities. If the British had chosen the same path as Israel did with Hamas, then the IRA would most probably be just like Hamas is today.

The reason you think the comparison is not valid is because you are comparing 2024 Hamas to 1980 IRA and saying the weapons capabilities are different! No shit Sherlock the weapons capabilities and threat levels are different because there is 45yrs of technological and weapons advances between 1980 and 2024 along with a war that has ground on for that much longer with that much more hatred and revenge built up over generations of war trauma. Your comment is showing an inability to consider temporal factors working beneath the surface.

I think it is silly of you to claim that the IRA would not have continued to improve their weapons capabilities over time, or adapted the same way Hamas did in response to weapons blockades if the war had continued on past the late 1990s.

Especially since it is much easier geographically to smuggle weapons into Ireland by land and sea than it is into Gaza. Irish terrorists are also not any less intelligent or inventive than Palestinian terrorists- they would have further developed their skills. They did develop the skills and homemade technology for radio controlled car bombs; so they weren’t stupid.

The reason the IRA did not upgrade their weapons capabilities is because a political peace process was negotiated and followed, making the war and violence no longer a necessity.

The threat levels started out the same, the trajectories over the past 45yrs could have been the same. The difference as to why Hamas is still around and has upgraded weapons with the times is due to the difference in how Israel vs how the U.K. handled what was substantially the same level of threat in the 1980s.

It shows that decades of brutal military occupation with raids/bombings, apartheid, and blockades/sieges actually increase the threat level of terrorists.

I think comparison is unnecessary. When you say Israeli, what people will think of is body bags, and rubble, amputations without anaesthesia, and hunger and misery without compassion being rained down on Gaza.

I agree. I suppose I went down a rabbit trail because of the Dresden comparison introduced up thread which led me to react with if we are going to compare, the closest comparison would be the Troubles.

That's your opinion.

When you say "Israel" some people will see the only democracy in the Middle East fighting for it's survival (on several fronts) against various groups of genocidal terrorists all backed by a Middle Eastern theocratic country, with a list of human rights abuses as long as your arm.

At the moment there is no ruling made against Israel.

Some people might

Others might think of a country fighting to survive and hunting down the scum who - up close and personally - murdered, raped and kidnapped innocent people

Yes, we all know you think every single Israeli is guilty and should be punished. You've made that clear.

She's not comparing Hamas to PIRA. Just saying that had Britain responded to PIRA terrorism in the way Israel has responded to Hamas terrorism, it would likely not have been possible to make the GFA.

Seems like a statement of the bleeding obvious to me, not sure why you are requiring a hard comparison.

Can you identify a comparison where a nation has gone in hard militarily to remove terrorist group? Preferably with a successful outcome. I used the example of the "war on terror" upthread but noone wanted to discuss that.

I think everyone who is guilty should be punished. I sincerely doubt that every single Israeli is fuelling this madness anymore than I think every Palestinian supports Hamas.