Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

I have done, and I understand that Israel has to check that arms are not being smuggled through that can be used by Hamas.

Some of this aid going into Gaza comes directly from Egypt and some is flown in from around the world, landing at a small logistical airport in the Egyptian city of Al-Arish. That cargo is loaded onto trucks that wait, sometimes for days, before entering Rafah. Delays have happened for a number of reasons, mainly a lack of fuel or communications lines at times needed to distribute aid inside Gaza.

What have I missed?

"The protesters are not blocking Aid to Gazans per se. They are blocking aid to Hamas, who, as we know, purloins Aid for it's own purposes. The Gazans are 'collateral damage' in this exercise."

@Toggenburgsaregreat this is where you justified it. It's OK to block the aid because in your head Hamas will take it so it's fine to block aid from a starving population.

Israel controls what passes through Rafah too. Let's not pretend otherwise.

@PabloPawcasso" Yes I do think we should take in refugees from Gaza – just as we have done from Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia and Ukraine."

And do you think Hamas would let them leave?

They need their population as 'human shields'.

"Delays have happened for a number of reasons, mainly a lack of fuel or communications lines at times needed to distribute aid inside Gaza.

What have I missed?" @Toggenburgsaregreat

Just the part where Israeli authorities frustrate all attempts to bring aid in. It's well documented and I'm pretty sure it's a war crime.

@ConnieCounter "this is where you justified it. It's OK to block the aid because in your head Hamas will take it so it's fine to block aid from a starving population."

I never said that at all or that it was 'OK' , please read my answer again. I said that was IMO the motivation of these protesters. Please stop putting words in my mouth to justify your own viewpoint.

@ConnieCounter "It's well documented and I'm pretty sure it's a war crime."

Well if it is, then it will be investigated by the ICC.

@ConnieCounter "Israel controls what passes through Rafah too. Let's not pretend otherwise."

It is not a normal border.
Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval.

I have never denied this.

You literally don't say anything in the post I quoted about it being your opinion of the motivation of the protesters. It reads as your own opinion.

"The protesters are not blocking Aid to Gazans per se. "

What is it you don't understand about this sentence?

Sigh.

In that sentence you express an opinion that the protesters are not blocking aid to Gazans as such.

That does not prove your point. This is ridiculous.

The protest DID happen.

They blocked aid getting in.

Delayed them all.

Only 9 got through out of the lot. Some were rerouted and got In. Not all.

The rally was unauthorised.

Innocent civilians were the ones that suffered the consequences of this protest.

It's a statement of fact in this situation . No more, no less.

Do you have a problem dealing with facts?

"Is this how you see the Gazans? Just collateral damage? Not human beings?"

That is such an asinine question it isn't worthy of reply.

I do not have a problem with facts but I find using the term " collateral damage" when applied to human beings morally wrong, in any context. It's a way of avoiding saying "innocent people are being killed".
You are, in essence, saying that by cutting food aid to Hamas, innocent people will die and so be it.
No question is "asinine". This is something that I always taught my pupils and that I live by.

It seems to me that far too many people are getting overly invested in the Hamas/Israel conflict.

This might be helpful ;-

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/11/24/1214534579/images-war-gaza-israel-vicarious-trauma-stress

especially this paragraph -

• Keep things in perspective. Remember there are "7 billion people living in this world right now and there are a lot of good things happening," says Javanbakht. "There are Jews and Muslims who are living like normal humans elsewhere."

And that all I have to say on the issue.

@Toggenburgsaregreat 'there are Jews and Muslims living like normal humans elsewhere' seems quite an offensive thing to say both to Jews and Muslims

Please define "normal" because what is normal to you might not be normal to me.
Could you also explain what an abnormal Jew's and Muslim's life looks like?
Sorry if my questions are asinine.

You sound to me very arrogant, high-handed and defensive (sorry to say it but ‘it’s a fact’).

There are ways of describing things, and ‘collateral damage’ is highly euphemistic. We only know what it means ‘death of innocent civilians’ because it’s been translated for us in the past. There is a clear value judgement about the disposability of those lives implicit in the term.

There are many ways these fatalities could have been described, and terming the deaths of 25,000 innocent civilians in in the space of 4 months within a 25 mile strip “collateral damage” is a highly subjective position. Not mere fact.

Some twitter reports are stating that the protesters blockading the aid are the families of the hostages. I can't find anything conclusive either way to say they are or they aren't.

Some are and some are not according to this article.

www.timesofisrael.com/for-second-day-in-a-row-protesters-block-aid-reaching-gaza-from-israel/

Thanks @anotherlevel .

Finland’s Foreign Minister Elina Valtonen said the time for Israel’s “self-defense is over,” slamming the Israeli government for failing to protect civilians in the Gaza Strip and joining the chorus calling for an immediate cease-fire.
“Let me be very clear: enough is enough, the civilian population in Gaza needs an immediate humanitarian cease-fire,”

https://www.politico.eu/article/finland-elina-valtonen-israel-enough-is-enough-gaza/

Weird post. You started the thread? Bit odd to then accuse people of being "overinvested"

It’s getting harder and harder to defend so time to tell us all to stop getting so involved. Time to look away and start focusing on other things.

"Overly invested?"

I'm invested in being a voice for the people I knew and cared about in Gaza, who can no longer speak for themselves because they've been shot, bombed and otherwise killed.

I'm invested in wanting to help the people of Gaza, who my friends died trying to save.

I'm invested in wanting to help stop bloodshed and find a way towards peace and justice, because I want my child to live in a world where those things are prioritised over profit and prejudice.

I was trying to think of a polite way to say that, well done!