"The only purpose of these endless marches is to intimidate British Jews" (part two) ***MNHQ has tweaked the title in order to make the quote more clear***

[stomachameleon]

Only the few apparently........these pictures are from todays March. Footage to follow..

The only way the conflict in Northern Ireland came to an end was when both sides stopped the partisan behaviour and acknowledged that there had been wrong doing in both sides and suffering on both sides. The marches are very partisan . I do understand that it is the Palestinians that are bearing the brunt of the suffering and that should be the focus of the March . But I also think there has to be a space for the marchers to show solidarity with Israelis who have suffered. It is in everyone’s interest that the conflict is brought to an end.

You are right @Limeandsodaontherocks It is a polarising issue. Resolution can only come by putting aside all differences, but with so much water under the bridge it's hard to do, I suppose. I think there are also extremists who make things harder for moderate folk who'd prefer compromise and to get on with their lives.

The marches are not really about a sustainable ceasefire or addressing Israel's legitimate security concerns are they?

I think I could understand a march that was ultimately for peace and one based on both sides ultimately being in a position to stop conflict. I think everyone wants that.

The marches though really are one sided and many still wish maximal Palestinian territorial goals alongside not condemning the heinous terrorism of the 7th. The only protestor that wanted Hamas removed as a terrorist organisation was removed!

A slew of signs using anti-zionism as a proxy for anti Israel is a shocking sight in the streets of London. There are those on these marches actively advocating ending the existence of a state and surely this can only act as a spur to anti semitism in this country?

Where are the signs calling on a. two state solution? All we get are 'river to sea' chants that promote a vision of Palestinians owning the land of Israel. Calls of genocide resound amongst the crowds yet we all know with out the IDF Hamas would h ave carried on their murderous barbaric rampage into cities and that to my mind definitely is the definti on of genocide. Little recognition of the hostages held still by Hamas or their fate (and judging from reports they are not being well treated).

If I were part of the Jewish community, yes, I would be intimated. Everyone has the right to live in this country without fear especially a group that has suffered so much in the past.

Mids2019 out of curiosity do you recognise that Israel is holding many Palestinian children hostage and has been for years ( you won’t hear about it in the pro Israel media )
are you aware that Netanyahu doesn’t want the hostages back, are you aware that many many members of the Israeli government have called for all of Gaza to be wiped out. The finance minister called all Palestinians including babies nazis in an interview.
are you aware that before October the 7th children
were being by Israel. Mohammad tamimi was a 2 year old that was shot by the IDF before October 7th for no apparent reason, his family didn’t get justice like so many families. You really don’t have the moral authority to go around asking or expecting people to condemn. I struggle to comprehend why Israel supporters reduce 75 years of colonial oppression to October 7th. Did you ever condemn any of their actions prior to October 7th ????
on the way back from the March me and the children got on a tram . As we were waiting for the tram there were dozens of football fans screaming and banging on the tram windows . There was a police presence but i did feel intimidated as a woman with a hijab . Do I for one second think they should ban football matches ? No I don’t as I appreciate these few fans don’t represent the majority.

I understand and respect your points and I’m sure you and your children are completely peaceful on the March. Do you agree that the marches should also be a space where Hamas can be condemned for their role in triggering the current crisis?
I only see criticism of the Israeli government and I know there are very good reasons for that justified criticism. Marchers should also be able to criticise Hamas for causing suffering to the Palestinians.

This. Yet the marchers fail to see how partisan they are. Why? They think they are helping, but in reality they aren't. They are just polarising more.

Do you agree that the marches should also be a space where Hamas can be condemned for their role in triggering the current crisis?
I find this an unusual position, the people on the marches are everyday people choosing to spend their Saturday marching for something they want to see change or happen, which to me seems that they want to put pressure on the UK government to change their current policy on the conflict, as in put pressure on Israel to stop their bombardment of Gaza. You have queried a number of times why are people also not condemning Hamas, but this is an open public march if there is enough people that agree with you why are you not out there marching with your placards on this? Why are you expecting others to do this for you? If you feel it is because you would not feel safe or comfortable doing this I don't understand why you would expect others to do it for you? I am not trying to be smart just trying to point out that no one can dictate what others should be marching for, you can only control what you want to march for.

I have also seen posters criticise marchers for not challenging antisemitic placards, but tbh I would not recommend anyone approach anyone else, you do not know what they may be capable of. The posters on here who said they attended a march and saw antisemitic placards pointed them out to the police which is the right course of action in my opinion.

Yes I have said the same thing a number of times because I haven’t received an answer I understand. Why is it unusual to expect a pro ceasefire march to provide space to condemn the actions of Hamas as well as the Israeli government?
Im not out there marching with an anti Hamas placard for exactly the same reason that you say people shouldn’t confront anti semitism on the marches. I would be afraid of the response I would get on the tube and in the march. I would feel outnumbered and intimidated and no one on here has said anything that makes me feel more comfortable about joining the march.

Many of my friends are on the March and I would join if it was less polarising . I find it very hard to voice my view that Hamas played a role in this crisis ( they must have anticipated the suffering Oct 7th would cause ) . I have been abused for even daring to question the idea that only Israel is to blame. I don’t talk about the issue any more - apart from anonymously on here . Yes I’m a coward . No im not going to march around with my own little placard . I don’t expect anyone else to do it for me. I just ask questions on here in the vague hope that it will make some people on the March a bit more empathetic to the feelings of British Jews and others

I think that might be my last post because I don’t think I’ve got anything else to add.

You’re answering a different question to the one that was asked.

Why are the current marches not a space where Hamas can be condemned? It’s not asking why people on the marches aren’t condemning them.

We’ve all seen what happens to that Iranian guy every time he tries it. Why is he not safe on the marches?

Shouldn’t the marches also be a space to condemn Hamas and if not, why not?

@Limeandsodaontherocks If you would be interested in attending, then you could make contact with a march or protest organiser and ask them for advice and assistance. If your local events feel like they wouldn't be safe or a good fit for you, then you could look into ones a bit further afield.

I can't speak for every march, but the ones we've been involved with have been (mostly) inclusive and family friendly. We have a number of sub-groups for organising things (including smaller events), so if you were to contact someone organising our local events and described what you'd want to be saying/representing and explained you hadn't been before, we would then be able to try to link you up with either the sub-group closest to your views/needs or arrange for someone to buddy up with you for some support.

It can be really scary putting yourself out there, though, I get it. If it's not something you feel able to do at the moment, then just do what you can - every voice, every donation makes a difference, even if you don't see it straight away.

@Nads0622
do you have a source for this:

>>>are you aware that Netanyahu doesn’t want the hostages back

??

Your point about football matches is of course important - and so relevant it is amazing that many can't see it. Maybe don't want to see. Loads of other weekend activities and gatherings as well of course.

Your tram experience sounds worse than anything I personally saw on the march (as I said I didn't stay until the very end though saw pretty much the entire progress from Hyde Park Corner) - where was this?

Were you on the march from the beginning? If so, in relation to a question I have asked upthread a couple of times but not had answered, did the march leave before the police wanted it to? If so was there some form of forcible breakout? The police asked for the start to be delayed I understand in order to avoid it passing a synagogue at letting out time.

@Dulra

>>I have also seen posters criticise marchers for not challenging antisemitic placards, but tbh I would not recommend anyone approach anyone else, you do not know what they may be capable of. The posters on here who said they attended a march and saw antisemitic placards pointed them out to the police which is the right course of action in my opinion.

May be good advice - there are some odd characters everywhere and as you say things could possibly turn ugly with unknown characters. If I go again I might ask someone with a "river to the sea" placard what they meant by it. Am not aware that that is considered illegal (it has various interpretations I think) so not a police matter. The jewish marcher who posted upthread also said I think that they would not report it/would let it be. (If I have mis paraphrased that poster, please correct me poster)

I did see an individual copper at Hyde Park Corner take a pic on his phone. Whether that was for police use or just a personal pic I have no idea. There was an official big police camera, well protected, on the south side of Hyde Park (near Princes Gate?) and that I assume would have captured pretty much everything. Quite possibly of course other police cameras were there.

The marches began because governments were calling out Hamas and the need for Israel to defend herself despite impact on innocent Gazans. Every sane person thinks what Hamas did on 7/10 did was awful, but not everyone thought IDF’s response was proportional. This is why people wanted to march.

In this context - why would people feel the need to call out Hamas? The governments were already doing this.

I imagine the other reason people march is to show solidarity with Palestinians given what they are currently living through. I imagine the marches will stop once there is a ceasefire.

Everyone supports the underdog- perhaps it’s part of human nature?

That’s not to say that the tens of thousands of people who march are antisemitic and the sole purpose of the marches is to intimidate Jews.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/mind-brain-and-value/202101/why-do-we-love-underdog-stories-psychology-weighs-in?amp

I did see the vast majority of the march. I said so and didn't misrepresent what I saw nor exaggerate how much of the march I saw.

To clarify repeat.
I wasn't at the Hyde Park initial gathering - hence my questions about that.
I didn't march between Marble Arch and Hyde Park Corner.
I stood at Hyde Park Corner and saw pretty much the whole march and most of the things on display there go past me - hence I was able to tap into my phone the wordings of many of the banners/placards I saw. I couldn't have done this while walking on the march.
I joined the march but peeled off before the end.

I clearly asked for the location of the synagogue as part of a question to try to figure out if in fact the march passed by it as people were leaving it. Which clearly could have been a problem. My question was prompted by the charge from some quarters that the march ignored a police request to time the start of the march so that this didn't happen. And that this showed the anti semitic rabble rousing nature of the march. My questions on this important point remain curiously unanswered by several on here, including I think yourself.

Elyon Levy I will indeed look out for. As I said I was only first made aware of him from the BBC report post march. I have seen one or two Israeli spokespeople. I trust he wasn't the one I saw last year on the beeb who, asked reasonable questions, then spent most of the "interview" raging and spitting feathers at the BBC. Not sure what he hoped to achieve by that.

So yes will look out for - this is all a learning process - have learned a fair bit about the various players during this unholy mess.

In this context - why would people feel the need to call out Hamas? The governments were already doing this.

Because the actual quickest way to bring about a cessation of hostilities and a peaceful resolution would be for Hamas to release the hostages and agree to leave Gaza.
I actually think a lot of the global solidarity with its message of "From the river to the see" is unkind. It gives Palestinians false hope that the whole of the region will be theirs, and doesn't pave the path for a peaceful, two-state solution.

@Nads0622

the current marchers are calling for a ceasefire (ostensibly) and a 'free Palestine'.

let's unpick this.

a ceasefire would have to be agreed by both sets of combatants i.e. the IDF and Hamas and so surely if the marchers were serious about a ceasefire the calls should be made to both sides and not just the IDF. What is guaranteeing rockets not being launched towards Israel or heaven forbid a repeat of 7/10? A ceasefire if that is what the marchers truly want requires the removal of Hamas from any position of power and I very much doubt Israel will accept anything less so why not have few placards with 'remove Hamas' as this will facilitate a ceasefire?

A free Palestine presumably means an autonomous state and most governments are looking at some form of 2 state solution to solve a long lasting conflict and this would I think be the 'free Palestine' most people think of. The negotiations toward such a solution will be tortuous, complex and long but ultimately that is the path of peace in my opinion. However, and importantly, 'free Palestine' can not mean a dissolution of the Israeli state; that is anti-semtic and if that is what is being implied by these placards then indeed Jews in the UK will be intimated.

There are many grievances world wide between peoples but there can never ever an excuse to justify the acts of 7/10; sorry there simply can't. I think many absolutely respect Israel's right to self defence and if such an event happened in the UK I would expect our government to respond with decisive force to prevent an attack like that in our citizens. It is not the fault of Israel that Hamas use a civilian population as shields though like everyone we hope and pray civilian casualties are minimised.

The overall point is that the marches do not in themselves effect Israeli policy (the actions of the US government might though). The marches I think therefore have limited political impact but do allow a festering of anti Semitic feeling which is becoming more and more apparent in the UK. The marchers may not effect the middle East but certainly they can impact life in the UK and the social cohesion and respect for all faiths and races we all enjoy.

@Nads0622 where did Netanyahu say that? About the hostages?

@Offwiththecircus

Not sure what he hoped to achieve by that.

If you don't even know it's him I am not sure what you hope to gain by writing that? Just shows your bias and prejudice about someone you know nothing about.... or is it more what he represents?

Every sane person thinks what Hamas did on 7/10 did was awful

That’s handy, dismissing all those people who vocally supported Hamas or justified it as ‘resistance’ as insane so that you don’t have to address the fact that they exist in enough numbers to be visibly out on the streets of our country, and posting on MN. They’re insane so don’t worry about them?

no - am simply saying what I know/what I don't know.
What I saw/what I haven't seen.
As I said it's a learning process.
In furtherance of, perhaps you would care to answer my questions.

To answer your question you only need to search online and it will tell you where the synagogue is and why the March was delayed. No synagogues or religious events then no need to delay? Unless you are insinuating it was made up to disrupt the March?

So I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

You seem unable/ unwilling to appreciate other peoples lived experience or acknowledge the placards we have evidence of (even though you insinuate you single handily vetted everyone) so I don't know what else there is to say really?
You are just derailing or attempting to badly.....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/palestine-solidarity-campaign-israeli-london-metropolitan-police-people-b2497792.html

I find it very hard to voice my view that Hamas played a role in this crisis ( they must have anticipated the suffering Oct 7th would cause ) are you saying you anticipated the bombing of Gaza and all the people who have been trapped there and died? How did you anticipate such horror?

@TomeTome what did you imagine was going to happen afterwards?

I would never have imagined anyone behaving as Israel has. Did you think this would be the response @stomachamelon ?

@TomeTome A lot of people almost immediately recognised that there would be a crushing military response. We hoped it wouldn't be this extreme, but we knew a response would happen. This wasn't something that was going to be responded to with having some stern words. It was a brutal attack on largely civilian populations, in a country with a hawkish anti-Palestinian government, led by a politician who has built his brand on security and control. Even if the people at the top didn't care that much about individual lives, they would care about the reputational and ego damage. Hamas effectively signed their own death sentence and that of the civilians dying in Gaza. Why they did so and how they were able to do so are questions which will need answered. Right now, though, we need to be calling for people to be better today than Hamas were, and better than the Israeli government has been so far, and look to stop the killing of more innocent people.