South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

Just to be clear - Martin Griffiths is UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator.

His comments were part of a report he submitted, some of it based on hearsay from colleagues in the area. He himself has not visited Northern Gaza.

This is from yesterday

The United Nations humanitarian office said on Friday that Israeli authorities were systematically denying it access to northern Gaza to deliver aid and this had significantly hindered the humanitarian operation there.

We have systematic refusal from the Israeli side of our effort to get there, to access the north."

De Domenico said Israel was concerned about fuel deliveries and other supplies that could be diverted to Hamas, and had been reluctant to authorise aid deliveries to hospitals in north Gaza.

We've repeatedly highlighted Israel's recurring failures to uphold the fundamental principles of international humanitarian law: distinction, proportionality and precautions in carrying out attacks

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-deplores-israels-systematic-refusal-grant-access-north-gaza-2024-01-12/

His comments were part of a report he submitted, some of it based on hearsay from colleagues in the area. He himself has not visited Northern Gaza.

When my colleagues perform a task at my request - I don't refer to their feedback as 'hearsay' and I don't need to 'visit' to confirm the feedback

@Pinkpetunias88 the number of dead is so high that many a times people are being buried when and wherever they can which includes on side walks and mass graves
However straight after a bombing, it's not always possible which Is why there may be some corpses in some areas

What you say may well be true but we shouldn't try to compare apples and pears here. (Unless of course you work for an international agency and your colleagues are working under your direction.)

'Hearsay' = information received from other people which cannot be substantiated.

It doesn't say that any photographs were taken or any filming done of the situation. In fact I can't find any information that indicates that any international organisation has taken any steps to document any part of the crisis.

I am open to being corrected on this.

@Pinkpetunias88 the morgues are full, the cemeteries are full. The Hamas health ministry I am assuming can't walk around organising funerals as they are a target for the IDF

The civilians and civil workers do what they can in extremely difficult and catastrophic circumstances.
Here is one example of bodies collected and buried in a mass grave
Image taken from Reuters

The photos is of Khan Younis, not northern Gaza.

Are there any circumstances where you'd take their word for it and not question and disparage their account of the situation?

ICJ judges ought to be impartial and not act as extensions of their countries. In the past though, judges have voted in line with their countries’ politics.
So unfortunately it is not as impartial as it should be. Nonetheless it is a significant step that South Africa has taken and I applaud them for having the courage to take this stand.

According to Al Jezeera, Israel stopped bombing Northern Gaza 6 days ago so any human remains should have been collected by now.

The reports talks about bodies being left unburied 'on the streets' which seems odd to me

@Pinkpetunias88 there's large parts of the north that people fled whilst intense bombing was still ongoing. They could not return there again, not even during the ceasefire even though they argued that one of the reasons was to go back to bury the dead and try and retrieve those who died under the rubble
If you want to believe what Martin said you can. And if you don't want to then that's also up to you

@Efacsen "Respecting and believing colleagues without photographic evidence is the norm"

Not in (high profile) armed conflicts it isn't.

"No matter which war or conflict we are discussing, a strengthened systematic prevention and documentation is the only way to ensure justice and accountability for those responsible in the long run. Therefore, strong independent bodies such as national human rights institutions are needed, representing not the parties to the conflict but the civilians caught on each side of it.

Because it is the civilians and their rights that we must protect."

Quoted from Danish Institute for Human Rights

''Over the last hour, attacks have also reached the north of the Gaza Strip. Palestinians have been killed and wounded in an air strike in Beit Lahiya, where heavy gunfire has also been heard.'' Al Jazeera today at 08.55

The 100,000 or so people remaining in northern gaza are largely thought to be the elderly, disabled, injured/sick [and a handful of Hamas fighters] who could not evacuate so probably not fit for grave-digging duties

Civic society has totally broken down - there is no-one left to co-ordinate/action normal counting and burying the dead - think 'Hamas health' is now directed from West Bank

Have you seen any of the satellite photos or IDF-approved pictures of northern gaza? Acres and acres of rubble and destroyed/damaged buildings

If the bombing is so intense that people haven't been able to bury their dead then that should NEVER be a criticism levelled at those people, only those doing the bombing.

It's yet another indignity they are being subject to.

What choice do they have?

1)In some areas their will be no one left alive to do the burying.

2)In others, trying to stay alive/take the rest of the family to safety well have to be the priority.

3. In others it will simply be too dangerous. I read about a father who went to collect his young daughters bodies (they were killed by the IDF even playing in their garden). He was then shot.

4. with the extreme levels of starvation in the north, coupled with the lack of fuel, many people simply wouldn't have the physical strength to dig graves

5. The IDF have on at least a few occasions bulldozed graves, dug up remains etc. This was also mentioned in the ICJ hearing.

@Efacsen

"You don't seem to understand how the world works"

On the contrary I understand how the world works very well.

I work in an industry where 'if it isn't documented it wasn't done/didn't happen'.

Atrocity stories are a common feature of war propaganda.
One particularly unproven inflammatory story about Iraqi soldiers pulling infants out of incubators in a hospital in Kuwait and throwing them on the ground to die elicited huge public outrage and was used no less than six times in a single month by George H.W. Bush to point out Saddam's ruthless and despicable nature, before the story was exposed as a lie.

If the bombing is so intense that people haven't been able to bury their dead then that should NEVER be a criticism levelled at those people, only those doing the bombing.

Exactly this. Rather than being 'puzzled' why the Muslims who are supposed to bury the dead quickly haven't done so yet. Anyone who has been following the conflict could tell you why it's possible that some bodies were unfortunately left unburied whilst those who could escape, fled.

Not sure what your trying to make a point of here. The UN is a credible source and there are numerous accounts of the situation in Gaza on the ground as the posts above highlight. Mass displacement, lack of equipment, completely collapsed infrastructure. Even graveyards have not been spared with accounts of desecration, stolen bodies and organs. This is not a simple situation.

No-one is allowed into northern Gaza without the IDFs express permission [an aid convoy with permission was attacked there by IDF last week]- taking photos is tightly controlled/forbidden

Why wouldn't normal levels of trust continue to exist between UN employees even if they can't provide photographic evidence?

Are you suggesting that the UN is generating 'atrocity stories'?

Previously there were posters trying to discredit amnesty international. Honestly there is so much documentation and evidence out there of the situation on the ground yet this poster is stuck on this one point. I am sure as time goes on and access is easier you will get your 'evidence'. No doubt there will be very horrific reports that will come out. I believe there are still many under the collapsed buildings and rubble.

During the week long ceasefire families tried to return to northern gaza to bury their dead

They were stopped from doing so by the IDF who shot 11 people killing 2 on day 1 of the ceasefire [widely reported and verified]

I have heard people saying this about the atrocities on 7th October being dismissed as anti-semitic, victim blaming, in denial, minimising the pogrom etc.

Do you therefore agree with Owen Jones that there is no proof the rapes of women by Hamas happened?

I am saying that without clear evidence it is very difficult to prove anything and I gave an example.

As you are unfamiliar with importance of documentation, especially in armed conflicts, I post the following ; https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Publications/training7part1618en.pdf

Honestly every day I am horrified at the the double standards and lack of critical thought
Israel told Gazans to evacuate the North or be killed. I don't think they've yet been told its safe to return. So who are you thinking will bury the dead?

So what happens when the IDF stops photographic evidence being recorded by UN?