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Conflict in the Middle East

Teaching Hatred

267 replies

UnSognoAVenezia · 27/12/2023 23:55

INTERNATIONAL LAW
The use and recruitment of children under the age of 15 as soldiers is not only illegal under international law, but is also defined as a war crime by the International Criminal Court.

This law applies both to state armed forces and non-state armed forces; in other words, Palestinian groups cannot claim innocence for using children in combat under the guise that their paramilitary groups are not acting on behalf of a sovereign nation.

In 2005, Amnesty International stated: “Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks.”

The psychological effects for child soldiers are devastating. Research conducted among Palestinian and Ugandan child soldiers found that 50 percent of former child soldiers experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Others suffer from major depressive disorder, hostility, sadness, low self-confidence, and an inability to cope with daily life.

HISTORY
The recruitment of minors for combat by Palestinian militants dates back to the final years of the Ottoman occupation of Palestine (1517-1917). Youths were at the forefront of the opposition against Jewish immigration, and an attitude developed that children had a “duty to sacrifice themselves.”

During the infamous 1929 Hebron Massacre, when 69 Jews were murdered and the most ancient continuous Jewish community in Palestine was decimated, Arab youths instigated the violence.

As relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world developed, the powerful Husseini family founded the Palestinian Arab Party, modeled after the Nazi Party in Germany. Inspired by the Hitler Youth, the party created a Nazi-like scout group named “Al-Futuwwa.” That same year, the A-Futuwwa youth corps began Nazi-inspired military training. Al-Futuwwa adopted the following motto: “Liberty is my right; independence is my goal; Arabism is my principle; Palestine is my country and mine only. This I attest and God is a witness to my words.”

With the establishment of the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964, the PLO created military training programs for boys and girls.

During the First Intifada (1987-1993), a culture of Palestinian youth stone-throwing emerged, quickly linking stone-throwing to martyrdom. During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), at least nine children carried out suicide bombings against Israelis.

TRAINING CAMPS
As stated above, the first militarized training camps for Palestinian children were established in the 1930s, inspired by the Hitler Youth. The group was known as Al-Futuwwa.

This practice resurged with the establishment of the PLO in 1964. Palestinian children were subjected to military training with the aim of “strengthening Palestinian national self-awareness” and upholding a “revolutionary culture.”

In 2000, 25,000 Palestinian boys were taught “kidnapping, ambushing, and using assault weapons” at a training camp run by former Palestinian Authority president Yasser Arafat’s staff.

In September 2012, Hamas, the Islamist, antisemitic, extremist terrorist organization that runs the Gaza Strip, instituted a new military training program for school boys in Gaza, also named Al-Futuwwa. The program implemented the following: (1) a two-week military training camp, (2) weekly “military” classes, and (3) “practical activities.” The curriculum targeted some 37,000 boys, who were taught to use Kalashnikov assault rifles, hand grenades, and other explosive devises.

SUICIDE BOMBINGS
During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), Palestinian groups recruited children as militants in a number of ways; most notably and devastatingly, at least nine suicide bombings were carried out by Palestinian children.

In 2004, the Israeli military intercepted an 11-year-old Palestinian boy carrying explosive devices on his person through a checkpoint in Nablus.

In 2000, the then Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Ekrima Sa'id Sabri made a statement in support of suicide attacks carried out by children: “The younger the martyr, the more I respect him.”

In 2003, the United Nations Secretary General stated: “We have witnessed both ends of these acts: children have been used as suicide bombers and children have been killed by suicide bombings. I call on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in this conflict.”

On December 25, 2023, the Israeli Defense Forces found child-sized suicide bomber vests in a building used to shelter civilians in the Gaza Strip.

During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), a photo of a "baby suicide bomber" sparked international outrage. The boy's uncle verified the authenticity of the photo, though the IDF believed there were no actual explosives in the belt.

INDOCTRINATION
Hamas runs both Shehab News and the Al-Aqsa Media Network. Al-Aqsa Media is known for its virulently antisemitic content; for example, the children’s program Tomorrow’s Pioneers, which ran from 2007 to 2009, quite literally encouraged Palestinian children to murder Jews. Children’s characters made statements such as: “We will annihilate the Jews,” and “[I] will finish off the Jews and eat them.”

Palestinian schoolbooks frequently espouse overt antisemitism, as well as demonization Jews, Israelis, and Israel. Hamas has repeatedly interfered with the curriculums of United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools, including the decision to suspend any education on the Holocaust in 2009. UNRWA teachers have also been caught posting explicitly antisemitic content online, such as content praising Hitler.

From 2002 to at least 2006, the Hamas-run biweekly online magazine for children, Al-Fatah (“The Conqueror”), praised suicide bombers and attacks on the “Jewish enemy.”

At least 20 UNRWA schoolteachers and staff praised the October 7 Hamas massacre of Israeli civilians, the deadliest antisemitic massacre since the Holocaust.

Here is a quote from Hamas MP Fathi Hamad:
"[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

IMPLICATIONS
First, a caveat: Israel too has been accused of “glorifying” military culture, with children being taught to look forward to their military draft. That said, the two situations are not remotely similar. First, Israel does not recruit minors for military operations. Israel does not fire from civilian-populated areas, and certainly not from areas populated by children. Independent studies have found that, while both Israeli and Palestinian school textbooks generally don’t offer a very sympathetic view of the other side, Palestinian textbooks overwhelmingly glorify martyrdom, whereas Israeli textbooks emphasize peace.

The militarization and radicalization of Palestinian children is a form of child abuse, and it has grave implications.

A clinical psychologist at Tel Aviv University, Shafiq Masalha, found that during the Second Intifada (2000-2005), 15 percent of Palestinian children dreamt of becoming suicide bombers. According to the director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Eyad Sarraj, 36 percent of Palestinian children over the age of 12 aspire to die “a martyr’s death.”

A 2012 study on Israeli, Palestinian, and Arab Israeli children found that exposure to the conflict and violence increased aggressive behavior. It stated: "Palestinian children were at the greatest risk for exposure to violence across settings as well as at the highest level of aggressive behavior in comparison to the two other groups. Males were uniformly at greater risk than were females for all forms of exposure to violence as well as more aggressive."

(credit Rootsmetals)

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14
Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:28

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/12/2023 10:21

If Hamas is hiding amongst civilians, and in schools, and hospitals, then Israel has no choice.

Every innocent life lost - especially a child's life - is a waste and an abomination, and it doesn't matter which nationality that life is, it is still waste and an abomination .

There is always a choice other than trapping, starving and bombing a civilian population.

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/12/2023 10:34

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:28

There is always a choice other than trapping, starving and bombing a civilian population.

How would you suggestIsrael deal with it? (Without allowing Hamas fighters/ weapons dumps to continue you be utilised against the Israeli civilian population?)

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:36

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/12/2023 10:34

How would you suggestIsrael deal with it? (Without allowing Hamas fighters/ weapons dumps to continue you be utilised against the Israeli civilian population?)

I would start with not committing genocide.

Mushroomsouptonight · 28/12/2023 10:39

@UnSognoAVenezia

You have collated lots of information about the teaching of hatred from very young.

It's indoctrination, and then add in martyrdom and it will continue on and on.

If Israel was wiped out (I don't want this to happen by the way) what then. Hanas appear only to have 1 aim. They don't appear to want to better the lives of civilians at all.

It's going to take generations if there is a peaceful settlement (that is a long term one, not just allowing the status quo to continue). I don't think Hamas will surrender, they would rather sacrifice everything than stop.

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 10:40

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:36

I would start with not committing genocide.

Maybe you could start with not promoting Hamas propaganda? By doing so you are, quite literally, teaching hatred.

The United Nations Genocide Convention (1948) defined genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."

In other words, precisely what Hamas set out to do on 7 October and promises to repeat until Israel and the Jews are gone.

It's not as though they even pretend to have different goals.

Genocide Convention - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:44

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 10:40

Maybe you could start with not promoting Hamas propaganda? By doing so you are, quite literally, teaching hatred.

The United Nations Genocide Convention (1948) defined genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."

In other words, precisely what Hamas set out to do on 7 October and promises to repeat until Israel and the Jews are gone.

It's not as though they even pretend to have different goals.

How is expressing an opinion that bombing civilians for 80 days is genocide "teaching hatred"? Surely we should all be able to agree that that is wrong? Why can't you?

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 10:47

Well, I suppose you could call it genocide if you refer to Hamas as an ethnic/religious group. But that's generally not what people are referring to when they call Israel's attacks on Gaza "genocide."

I think people just use the term loosely to mean "killing people" while at the same time reinforcing the notion that everything Israel does is a war crime, completely overlooking the true genocide that has taken place and threatens to recur.

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:56

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 10:47

Well, I suppose you could call it genocide if you refer to Hamas as an ethnic/religious group. But that's generally not what people are referring to when they call Israel's attacks on Gaza "genocide."

I think people just use the term loosely to mean "killing people" while at the same time reinforcing the notion that everything Israel does is a war crime, completely overlooking the true genocide that has taken place and threatens to recur.

Edited

Well that might be true if the people they'd killed were all Hamas but we know they were not. They were mainly civilians.

Killing a civilian population by bombing their homes and places of shelter, when they can't leave or find any safety and denying them food, medicine, healthcare and even water is genocide.

This is why discussion topics like this thread can be considered to be genocidal rhetoric. The children of Gaza are probably child soldiers so killing them is probably fine.

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:02

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 10:56

Well that might be true if the people they'd killed were all Hamas but we know they were not. They were mainly civilians.

Killing a civilian population by bombing their homes and places of shelter, when they can't leave or find any safety and denying them food, medicine, healthcare and even water is genocide.

This is why discussion topics like this thread can be considered to be genocidal rhetoric. The children of Gaza are probably child soldiers so killing them is probably fine.

How would you propose they target and kill Hamas, when we know they bury themselves in tunnels beneath kindergartens, mosques, hospitals, etc?

If Israel really wanted to commit genocide, really wanted to wipe out the Gazan population, they could easily have done so by now. It would certainly have been much easier than sending in the IDF.

Israel could easily have steamed in and killed 80% of Gazan civilians (1.6 million people), like Hamas achieved within just a few hours in its kibbutz attacks. Instead, after 3 months, they have killed 1% of the Gazan population. Don't you think that number would be higher if their intentions were truly genocidal? Have you considered why Hamas use human shields, and how effective this would be if Israel had no concern for civilian loss of life?

kirinm · 28/12/2023 11:11

What has to happen to Palestinians in Gaza for those who cheer on Israel's government to say 'enough is enough'? Their complete annihilation?

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:13

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:02

How would you propose they target and kill Hamas, when we know they bury themselves in tunnels beneath kindergartens, mosques, hospitals, etc?

If Israel really wanted to commit genocide, really wanted to wipe out the Gazan population, they could easily have done so by now. It would certainly have been much easier than sending in the IDF.

Israel could easily have steamed in and killed 80% of Gazan civilians (1.6 million people), like Hamas achieved within just a few hours in its kibbutz attacks. Instead, after 3 months, they have killed 1% of the Gazan population. Don't you think that number would be higher if their intentions were truly genocidal? Have you considered why Hamas use human shields, and how effective this would be if Israel had no concern for civilian loss of life?

They need Daddy USA to provide the bombs. Even the US couldn't support a full annihilation. They're struggling to stomach what Israel is doing now.

Bombing from the air is not how to find and kill terrorists in a highly populated area. It is a good way to ethnically cleanse a population though.

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:16

kirinm · 28/12/2023 11:11

What has to happen to Palestinians in Gaza for those who cheer on Israel's government to say 'enough is enough'? Their complete annihilation?

I'm not cheering on Israel's government. I don't enjoy war any more than you do. I wish Hamas hadn't started it. I'm just pointing out that careless use of terms like "genocide" is distorting the picture in ways that play entirely into the hands of terrorists.

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:18

Bombing from the air is not how to find and kill terrorists in a highly populated area. It is a good way to ethnically cleanse a population though.

Yes, you're right: if Israel was intent on ethnically cleansing the entire population of Gaza, carpet bombing would definitely be the way to go.

Given the 1% killed in 3 months, that is clearly not what they are doing.

Edited to add: careless use of terms like "ethnic cleansing" is also playing into Hamas propaganda.

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:19

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:18

Bombing from the air is not how to find and kill terrorists in a highly populated area. It is a good way to ethnically cleanse a population though.

Yes, you're right: if Israel was intent on ethnically cleansing the entire population of Gaza, carpet bombing would definitely be the way to go.

Given the 1% killed in 3 months, that is clearly not what they are doing.

Edited to add: careless use of terms like "ethnic cleansing" is also playing into Hamas propaganda.

Edited

Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. A few bombs is probably enough to make people leave. If you can't see the ethnic cleansing that's undeniably happening before our very eyes then there's no point talking to you.

ItsRainingTacos79 · 28/12/2023 11:20

This biased thread, in itself, is an echo chamber that is teaching and confirming hatred of Palestinians. Dehumanising Palestinians as coming from an alien culture where they don't love their children etc. What a disgusting, racist thread.

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:23

ItsRainingTacos79 · 28/12/2023 11:20

This biased thread, in itself, is an echo chamber that is teaching and confirming hatred of Palestinians. Dehumanising Palestinians as coming from an alien culture where they don't love their children etc. What a disgusting, racist thread.

I've obviously reported it for the reasons you've mentioned. And the fact that it's genocidal rhetoric as I've mentioned above.

Mushroomsouptonight · 28/12/2023 11:26

UnSognoAVenezia · 27/12/2023 23:55

INTERNATIONAL LAW
The use and recruitment of children under the age of 15 as soldiers is not only illegal under international law, but is also defined as a war crime by the International Criminal Court.

This law applies both to state armed forces and non-state armed forces; in other words, Palestinian groups cannot claim innocence for using children in combat under the guise that their paramilitary groups are not acting on behalf of a sovereign nation.

In 2005, Amnesty International stated: “Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks.”

The psychological effects for child soldiers are devastating. Research conducted among Palestinian and Ugandan child soldiers found that 50 percent of former child soldiers experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Others suffer from major depressive disorder, hostility, sadness, low self-confidence, and an inability to cope with daily life.

HISTORY
The recruitment of minors for combat by Palestinian militants dates back to the final years of the Ottoman occupation of Palestine (1517-1917). Youths were at the forefront of the opposition against Jewish immigration, and an attitude developed that children had a “duty to sacrifice themselves.”

During the infamous 1929 Hebron Massacre, when 69 Jews were murdered and the most ancient continuous Jewish community in Palestine was decimated, Arab youths instigated the violence.

As relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world developed, the powerful Husseini family founded the Palestinian Arab Party, modeled after the Nazi Party in Germany. Inspired by the Hitler Youth, the party created a Nazi-like scout group named “Al-Futuwwa.” That same year, the A-Futuwwa youth corps began Nazi-inspired military training. Al-Futuwwa adopted the following motto: “Liberty is my right; independence is my goal; Arabism is my principle; Palestine is my country and mine only. This I attest and God is a witness to my words.”

With the establishment of the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964, the PLO created military training programs for boys and girls.

During the First Intifada (1987-1993), a culture of Palestinian youth stone-throwing emerged, quickly linking stone-throwing to martyrdom. During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), at least nine children carried out suicide bombings against Israelis.

TRAINING CAMPS
As stated above, the first militarized training camps for Palestinian children were established in the 1930s, inspired by the Hitler Youth. The group was known as Al-Futuwwa.

This practice resurged with the establishment of the PLO in 1964. Palestinian children were subjected to military training with the aim of “strengthening Palestinian national self-awareness” and upholding a “revolutionary culture.”

In 2000, 25,000 Palestinian boys were taught “kidnapping, ambushing, and using assault weapons” at a training camp run by former Palestinian Authority president Yasser Arafat’s staff.

In September 2012, Hamas, the Islamist, antisemitic, extremist terrorist organization that runs the Gaza Strip, instituted a new military training program for school boys in Gaza, also named Al-Futuwwa. The program implemented the following: (1) a two-week military training camp, (2) weekly “military” classes, and (3) “practical activities.” The curriculum targeted some 37,000 boys, who were taught to use Kalashnikov assault rifles, hand grenades, and other explosive devises.

SUICIDE BOMBINGS
During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), Palestinian groups recruited children as militants in a number of ways; most notably and devastatingly, at least nine suicide bombings were carried out by Palestinian children.

In 2004, the Israeli military intercepted an 11-year-old Palestinian boy carrying explosive devices on his person through a checkpoint in Nablus.

In 2000, the then Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Ekrima Sa'id Sabri made a statement in support of suicide attacks carried out by children: “The younger the martyr, the more I respect him.”

In 2003, the United Nations Secretary General stated: “We have witnessed both ends of these acts: children have been used as suicide bombers and children have been killed by suicide bombings. I call on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in this conflict.”

On December 25, 2023, the Israeli Defense Forces found child-sized suicide bomber vests in a building used to shelter civilians in the Gaza Strip.

During the Second Intifada (2000-2005), a photo of a "baby suicide bomber" sparked international outrage. The boy's uncle verified the authenticity of the photo, though the IDF believed there were no actual explosives in the belt.

INDOCTRINATION
Hamas runs both Shehab News and the Al-Aqsa Media Network. Al-Aqsa Media is known for its virulently antisemitic content; for example, the children’s program Tomorrow’s Pioneers, which ran from 2007 to 2009, quite literally encouraged Palestinian children to murder Jews. Children’s characters made statements such as: “We will annihilate the Jews,” and “[I] will finish off the Jews and eat them.”

Palestinian schoolbooks frequently espouse overt antisemitism, as well as demonization Jews, Israelis, and Israel. Hamas has repeatedly interfered with the curriculums of United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools, including the decision to suspend any education on the Holocaust in 2009. UNRWA teachers have also been caught posting explicitly antisemitic content online, such as content praising Hitler.

From 2002 to at least 2006, the Hamas-run biweekly online magazine for children, Al-Fatah (“The Conqueror”), praised suicide bombers and attacks on the “Jewish enemy.”

At least 20 UNRWA schoolteachers and staff praised the October 7 Hamas massacre of Israeli civilians, the deadliest antisemitic massacre since the Holocaust.

Here is a quote from Hamas MP Fathi Hamad:
"[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

IMPLICATIONS
First, a caveat: Israel too has been accused of “glorifying” military culture, with children being taught to look forward to their military draft. That said, the two situations are not remotely similar. First, Israel does not recruit minors for military operations. Israel does not fire from civilian-populated areas, and certainly not from areas populated by children. Independent studies have found that, while both Israeli and Palestinian school textbooks generally don’t offer a very sympathetic view of the other side, Palestinian textbooks overwhelmingly glorify martyrdom, whereas Israeli textbooks emphasize peace.

The militarization and radicalization of Palestinian children is a form of child abuse, and it has grave implications.

A clinical psychologist at Tel Aviv University, Shafiq Masalha, found that during the Second Intifada (2000-2005), 15 percent of Palestinian children dreamt of becoming suicide bombers. According to the director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Eyad Sarraj, 36 percent of Palestinian children over the age of 12 aspire to die “a martyr’s death.”

A 2012 study on Israeli, Palestinian, and Arab Israeli children found that exposure to the conflict and violence increased aggressive behavior. It stated: "Palestinian children were at the greatest risk for exposure to violence across settings as well as at the highest level of aggressive behavior in comparison to the two other groups. Males were uniformly at greater risk than were females for all forms of exposure to violence as well as more aggressive."

(credit Rootsmetals)

You quoted lots of facts and history. I don't think some like that so will get your facts shut down rather than discuss the points you have made one by one.

It's easier for them to get them thread deleted that answer your points @UnSognoAVenezia

Mushroomsouptonight · 28/12/2023 11:28

Contains international points of law.

History.

Context.

Shut it down quickly!

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:29

Dehumanising a population of children who are currently undergoing a genocide.

Yes, shut it down please.

Mushroomsouptonight · 28/12/2023 11:33

Maybe it could be argued that they are taught to hate due to history and so the conflict goes on and on and on. If you are taught to hate and have experienced immense trauma in childhood. We can only imagine how awful it is.

Mushroomsouptonight · 28/12/2023 11:34

The trouble with shutting down means no understanding of why

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:37

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:23

I've obviously reported it for the reasons you've mentioned. And the fact that it's genocidal rhetoric as I've mentioned above.

But it's not genocidal rhetoric! Nor is it dehumanising anyone!

It is a sincere attempt to get our heads around what has happened. In particular, trying to fathom the level of emotional and physical sadism displayed on 7 October, the pleasure the attackers took in it, the joyful celebration of it on the streets of Gaza.

Perhaps being brought up from a young age to despise Jews/Israel, plus a culture that glorifies martyrdom, is a lethally potent combination? What do you think? This is the discussion we were trying to have, before you derailed it.

To be honest, getting to grips with this worldview is my way of struggling to understand what might have been going through the minds of the Hamas/Gazan attackers when they tortured and slaughtered families and kids at a party. Far from dehumanising them, it might actually make them seem fractionally less monstrous if I try to consider that they might sincerely believed that they were sending people to Paradise, or whatever.

daretodenim · 28/12/2023 11:40

ItsRainingTacos79 · 28/12/2023 11:20

This biased thread, in itself, is an echo chamber that is teaching and confirming hatred of Palestinians. Dehumanising Palestinians as coming from an alien culture where they don't love their children etc. What a disgusting, racist thread.

This.

ItsRainingTacos79 · 28/12/2023 11:41

Providing one sided 'facts' and opinion pieces does not mean this thread is not dehumanising Palestinians. I could do the same thing and compile facts and opinions about Israelis. There is a lack of critical thinking here.

Pizdietz · 28/12/2023 11:44

Toothyfruity · 28/12/2023 11:29

Dehumanising a population of children who are currently undergoing a genocide.

Yes, shut it down please.

If you had any idea how many threads on here could be accused of "dehumanising" Israel/Jews by blaming them for genocide, ethnic cleansing etc, entirely overlooking the situation they are in.

To turn kirinm's question back:
What has to happen to people in Israel for those who cheer on Palestine to say "enough is enough"? Their complete annihilation? How many more pogroms would you like to see before you consider that some kind of defensive action against Hamas is justified?

It would be interesting to see what would be left of Israel by now if Gaza had the same military capacity. I mean, they've spent the last couple of decades lobbing rockets over and stockpiling weapons so that they could inflict as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible, given the opportunity. How many Israelis would still be alive after 3 months if Hamas/Gaza had equal power? I doubt it would be 99%.