Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

It looks like the UN may have been reluctant to investigate or highlight the sickening sexual violence committed on October 7th. It also appears some of the hostages may have been abused.

Was this because the horrendous violence doesn't fit in with that purely Palestinians are victims of this ongoing conflict? Are investigations into these crimes because women are viewed as second class citizens or the revelations 'muddy the waters' where some just want to see one side as the victim.

@pickledandpuzzled
I think your point is that the sexual abuse in this case hasn’t been suppressed, it’s just being accepted as part and parcel of conflict as happens elsewhere.

Yes, thank you, that is my point, I am in no way denying the atrocities of weaponised rape on October 7th. It is part and parcel of all armed conflicts everywhere and everywhen with the same sort of unimaginable brutality. I also think that silence, suppression, sidelining, denial did and is happening, but it is no more than usual and therefore it is because the victims were female, the majority being Jewish hasn’t, in my opinion, affected the responsiveness or type of reactions.

The difference I think, which has upset everyone on this thread, is the massive support for one side in this conflict- and it’s not the side which experienced a sustained brutal attack.

I don’t really understand this to be honest. The civilians that have been attacked for 60days in a row, including soldiers on the ground attacking them in their homes for weeks, have not experienced a sustained, brutal attack, but the civilians that experienced one day of attacks, have experienced a sustained, brutal attack?

Also the massive support is mostly people who want all attacks to stop. A ceasefire means both groups of attackers stop. Most are focussed on stopping the present massacre of civilians as it is three quarters a massacre of women and children.

Yes, a good % of the supporters are also focussed on the future, on long term solutions to ensure peace and security for everyone in the region no matter their ethnicity or religion. This group also isn’t supporting “the attackers” of October 7th (Hamas and PIJ), but are basing their criticism of the Israeli government on how peace and security was won in similar circumstances. The terrorist ANC in South Africa was neutralised peacefully by ending apartheid. So people are drawing parallels and saying, Israel you want peace and security? End the apartheid.

@MercanDede noa argamani 26, kidnapped from nova party - how is she a POW? I wouldn’t call nova a military installation.

A ceasefire means both groups of attackers stop
on October 7th hamas broke a ceasefire. They repeatedly break ceasefires when they send terrorists and rockets against Israel civilians as they have done all year (and in previous years). The issue is if we have a ceasefire again and only one side respects it, how is that a ceasefire? that’s just surrender.
for a ceasefire to be truly sustainable, all the hostages alive and dead need to be returned, hamas need to surrender, and the strip needs to somehow be demilitarised.
This would be the best outcome for both Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas must be horrific for Palestinians to live under.

I keep seeing that Israel want to take Gaza back, but I really see no appetite for that here. Israel gave back land in the Sinai desert that was conquered in war, as part of a peace treaty with Egypt. That’s not regarded negatively here- we’ve pretty much had a cold peace with Egypt ever since, a good trade off. giving up Gaza was meant to do the same thing. That fell to pieces when hamas used Gaza as a springboard to launch rockets at us which they’ve done continuously for nearly the entire time they’ve been there.

(the West Bank and settlers are another story, and I feel like I’ve only got a partial understanding of what’s happening there).

I sometimes think that, but terrible as Hamas are, that leaves the civilians of Gaza completely vulnerable. Look at the WB, where many see the PA as weak and simply a security arm for the Israeli government. Their homes are raided at night by soldiers in balaclavas, and their children terrorised and taken away and, allegedly, tortured and sexually abused. What you suggest would leave the people in Gaza in the same position. I would love Hamas to hand over the hostages and surrender, but there needs to be a permanent deal for a ceasefire and election of a new government in Gaza as well as serious attempts at a future for both people. Part of this deal must mean co-operation in the prosecution of war crimes, and bringing the perpetrators of Oct 7th to justice.

I think you are saying that October 7th should be investigated fully so as to ensure all perpetrators that are not already dead or die in combat, are brought to justice as the war criminals they are? Because yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this; the investigation and independent verification are about gathering evidence to find the exact men who not only did these atrocities but the commanders that ordered it to bring them to justice. The investigation and independent verification is not to decide did it happen or not happen. We know it happened, there is more than enough evidence to establish this as fact, the UN and HRW and UHCR have made it official.

The focus is now rightly on finding out who and bringing them to justice, if they survive the war. As to when or whether this is very successful, I don’t have a lot of hope. Surviving armed men tend to blame their killed in action comrades in arms for being the rapists, and dead women can’t say otherwise. At least we have DNA tests and more advanced forensics so this is not as effective an alibi as it historically has been. Conviction rates for war criminals in relation to weaponised rape are statistically lower than conviction rates for rapists in the usual criminal courts in even the most egalitarian countries. As in utterly abysmal. 😣 It is a fight we still need to pursue.

I am horribly jaded and cynical because the misogynist reality we live in has always during my lifetime fallen far short of what is right or just. And I am sorry for that, for being more depressed than angry about it. I suppose I’m also numb because coping with the PTSD from having worked in war zones does mean I am on medications that numbs.

Even though we have slightly differing opinions, we agree on the most important aspects and it is important to speak up and bear witness to fight for justice.

'for a ceasefire to be truly sustainable, all the hostages alive and dead need to be returned, hamas need to surrender, and the strip needs to somehow be demilitarised.'

So sorry. This is the statement I was thinking about and replying to. Actually, it's probably off topic, so ignore me if you think so.

“I don’t really understand this to be honest. The civilians that have been attacked for 60days in a row, including soldiers on the ground attacking them in their homes for weeks, have not experienced a sustained, brutal attack, but the civilians that experienced one day of attacks, have experienced a sustained, brutal attack

@MercanDede
those citizens were warned, it was not an out of the blue, unpredictable, unprovoked attack. They aren’t planning parties and having sleepovers. They know who lives and hides among them and why this is happening. They know they are not the target of the attack but the hapless ones caught up in it because they are unable to get out of the way.

Small comfort I know. For me, it’s like the difference between being hit by a car crossing the road, and being driven over deliberately by someone you know.

You have I think commented elsewhere about the action on Gaza being worse than the October terrorism because of the scale. I don’t see it that way. The terrorism was worse because of the face to face, hand on hand, planned targeted brutality. Israel’s actions while massive are surgical in comparison.

Sorry, but there was no ceasefire on October 7th. I see this claim alot, but there was not a ceasefire in place on October 7th.

Both sides respected the one week ceasefire we just had until negotiations collapsed and the attacks restarted. Hamas wanted to release all hostages first, before POWs but Israel disagreed. All hostages would have been released by the end of this week if Israel had agreed. The ceasefire would have likely held out for a second week.

@MercanDede don’t want to derail, but have you tried EMDR therapy for PTSD? It can be transformative.

I think the suppression of talk around rape on October 7th, minimisation, contextualisation (of rape and torture) and very slow responses (or silence) correlates with attitudes like these from American universities

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1732176365288300772
(taken from a different thread, I hope that’s ok)

its all part of the same pattern in my opinion

The terrorist ANC in South Africa was neutralised peacefully by ending apartheid. So people are drawing par

@MercanDede if I believed that to be true I would be fully supportive.

What happens when it doesn't stop though. As that's not Hamas' end game is it? Stopping perceived injustice in Gaza and the West Bank.

@mids2019 I do not believe Hamas would have released all hostages. And I believe the collapse of the ceasefire was down to Hamas changing who they wanted released from prison and then firing a rocket an hour before it lapsed

Yes I have said that as I think the Israeli attacks on the Palestinian people are more sustained and brutal. I think it passed the equal to mark within a few days of October 7th. We differ in our opinion on this nuance.

Warnings are meaningless when you have nowhere to go or don’t receive it or can’t access it because Israel’s military has done a communications/power blackout. They do not warn before every strike either. In addition, there have been numerous cases where IDF have warned civilians and told them a safe zone that they then hours to a few days later bomb with no warning. There is growing evidence that Palestinian civilians have been and are being targeted.

The “driven over deliberately by someone you know.” unfortunately applies to both Israeli and Palestinian civilians.

Anyway I’m going to hide all these threads. I keep getting drawn back in and frankly I’m a nobody in this and need my headspace for more immediate things!

Huge love and sympathies for all those directly affected, wherever you are.

Maybe ceasefire is the wrong word. Israel were not actively going into Gaza, although there were still random rocket attacks and terrorist activities throughout the year. I don’t know how many were from Hamas, and how many from other terror groups around here. Work permits for Gazans to come into Israel were slowly being increased. We were not in an active state of war.

Yes, I have had EMDR and am scheduled for more. We are doing thematic trauma therapy. It has been helpful. Thank you for suggesting it.

There was an escalation in hostilities leading up to October 7th, with Israel doing 3 days of airstikes in Gaza from 22-24 September 2023 in retaliation for suspected incendiary balloons which was in retaliation for IDF and settler violence in the West Bank. It was enough that analysts expressed concerns that bigger attacks were brewing. October 7th was planned for years by Hamas so not saying the airstrikes caused October 7th, what I am saying is that you were in prewar skirmishes.
https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank

I hear what you’re saying. Unfortunately Hamas rocket attacks, incendiary balloons, terrorist attacks and IDF retaliations are frequent enough that it wouldn’t have registered as pre war skirmishes to the general public.
can I ask why you use ‘suspected’ to describe the incendiary balloons launched at Israel? The article you link states it happened, why cast doubt?

@MercanDede please don’t think I’m trying to attack you, it’s just language has serious consequences. If Harvard and the other universities I link to above can’t bring themselves to say that calling for genocide of Jews constitutes bullying and harassment, and discourse around atrocities against Israelis and Jews is minimised, or subject to excessive need for proof, denied and silenced, this only serves to make Israel and Jews feel more isolated and alone and less likely to trust in external parties. This does not serve peace for Israel and Palestine, it widens the gap, I hope not irreparably . I think you and I ultimately want the same thing, not revenge for either side, but stability and peace.

And I hear your point that it was not a ceasefire. My point about language goes both ways. I’ll look into it more thoroughly before i say that again.

Sorry, I did not mean to say suspected but suspended as they were suspended in the air at the time they were knocked out.

I agree language has serious consequences.

The video clip though isn’t that after the Universities were told that ‘from the river to the sea’ was de facto calling for the genocide of Jews despite their disagreeing with this? The follow-up question of does calling for the genocide of Jews violate the university code of conduct and constitute harassment, etc seemed to be a way to force Universities to agree to expel any/all students that have said or posted ‘from the river to the sea’? That’s why they all said it’s contextual.

We know the US House of Representatives overwhelming think ‘from the river to the sea’ is a call for genocide as they passed a bill that would outlaw it as hate speech. This same bill also outlaws Anti-Zionism saying it is Anti-Semitism, which will put many AntiZionist American Jews into a very awkward position where their opinion on their wider religious community would be made illegal.

It was a good point. I do try to word things carefully as I know you do too. I do actually appreciate being called out when I make errors of language or even have unintentionally posted outdated or incorrect information. I’m on that numbing stuff remember? So I won’t be all !!!! and angry if I’m mistaken on something fact based, so please do not worry about me feeling attacked.

whether or not they agree from the river to the sea is a call for genocide, they should still be able to unequivocally state calling for genocide of Jews is bullying and harassment. It’s like saying there’s context for rape being understandable because x y z.
argue about the chant separately, but that was a straight yes or no question. How do you think Jews at these universities feel when they see these responses?
I am not informed enough to argue properly about the anti Zionism thing in America but there is a difference between disagreements about Israeli government actions and policy (I think this should always be open to honest scrutiny criticism and debate) Vs not believing Israel as a state has a right to exist. I would argue the first is not anti Zionism, it’s something that should happen in or about any democracy , the second is antisemitism in new clothes.
Jews engaging in the first, I have no issue with. Jews engaging in the second is a complex issue with a historical religious difference between predominantly 1 particular ultra orthodox group and almost all the rest of the Jewish people, it’s really not straightforward at all. I can’t go into it now as got kids coming home and I’m rushing this message as it is and will take me ages to properly think it through and summarise

whether or not they agree from the river to the sea is a call for genocide, they should still be able to unequivocally state calling for genocide of Jews is bullying and harassment.

Yep it was a straight forward question worded like that. No excuses.