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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

OP posts:
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75
EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:30

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:13

They all terror suspects, all of them.

The surrender is a good thing.

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Unfortunately for you this is not how it works.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:32

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:36

So you think the IDF are thinking “obviously these are just a bunch of civilians coincidentally the rough age and sex of the other terrorists, innocently hanging out with terrorists, underground in a terrorist bunker, during a time we are at war with terrorists, who are surrendering to us, but we’re so evil let’s take these very unlikely suspects in for questioning anyway.”

You can’t arrest people just because they’ve a certain type of characteristics. That’s not how it works.

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:32

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 09:33

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 08:58

That's EXACTLY what some posters think

They must all be innocent because...? Well, I'm not sure anymore what the current reason is

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They might be innocent because right now the IDF haven't said that they are all terrorists

Yet you claimed they all were based on what?

feralunderclass · 08/12/2023 09:33

25milesfromhome · 07/12/2023 11:25

There’s no denying the Palestinians have been oppressed and suffered greatly, but the narrative that Israel was built on the strategic oppression of an indigenous people by a tiny minority (all ethnic Jews are indigenous to Israel btw, not a tiny minority of them) is imposing a Western centric/white colonial narrative and viewpoint upon the situation in order to reinforce an antisemitic ideology and bias.

Conflating the occupied territories as they currently exist to the establishment of the state of Israel as all part of the same colonialist endeavour bolsters Westernised, ideological/political anti-Israel rhetoric and seeks to reinforce division and opposition, rather than mutual interest and co-operation. Israel exists and it’s not going anywhere, the legitimacy of Israel and the legitimacy (or lack of, really) of the occupied territories are two different things. The excessive focus on Israel’s right to exist and the resentment that it does only serves to overshadow and distract from the reality of the current situation and work that needs to be done for the Palestinian people.

If the welfare and freedom of the Palestinian people really was Hamas, their associates and backers’ first concern, it’s not clear how they thought launching a savage and depraved large scale attack on Israel was going to further this cause with a workable, co-operative solution. Hamas and the other terrorist groups in Gaza and the West Bank were not born out of the despair of oppression, they were mostly born of a violent internal Palestinian power struggle, financed by external interests and corruption. They’re only really in alignment with regards to their hatred of Jews and their desire for control of the Palestinian people and territories.

Anyway, I agree with @Parkingt111 that at this point, preserving life is the most important thing. The Gazans who want to leave should be allowed to, and there should be greater international pressure and support to allow this to happen, coupled with a guarantee that they will be able to return when the conflict is over.

There should be no 'but'. It is reality that Israel exists as a result of white colonialism - who bolstered Israel? It was UK and US. I don't see anything antisemitic about that. It's the truth. It's also the truth (and this has become so apparent with this current government) that more and more land is being illegally grabbed. Government ministers have said they will not stop until the West Bank is for Jewish people only. The apparent ideology and MO is to wipe out the Palestinians.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:35

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Sorry, you think someone saying our trauma and genetics mean we have no empathy is a “thoughtful response”? No, it’s very old-fashioned antisemitism.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:36

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 09:22

I never trust a terrorist organisation and can't understand those who do

But you do you

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hamas Hasn’t said anything about this men yet so not sure why you’re saying that those that are raising questions about these arrests are believing Hamas.

Even idf hasn’t confirmed they were terrorists that has surrounded.

finally, if I was a Hamas terrorist would I surrender knowing I’ll be tortured or will I kill my self before being arrested and If possible try to kill others ? It makes no sense that 100 Terrorists have decided to surrender at the same time. Maybe I’m too naive

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:39

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:33

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A dodgy hospital in the 90s had a consent scandal which affected Israelis and Palestinians. Similar scandals have happened at hospitals here in the UK, which probably affected ethnic minorities too but it isn’t reasonable to say based on that “the British Army harvests organs from Muslims”. In this case the job is to invoke the blood libel. No the IDF does not harvest organs and yes it’s racist.

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:40

@cauliflowerwaterfall from the article:

Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

^^

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 09:43

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:39

A dodgy hospital in the 90s had a consent scandal which affected Israelis and Palestinians. Similar scandals have happened at hospitals here in the UK, which probably affected ethnic minorities too but it isn’t reasonable to say based on that “the British Army harvests organs from Muslims”. In this case the job is to invoke the blood libel. No the IDF does not harvest organs and yes it’s racist.

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Perhaps you could name the UK hospitals involved in similiar scandals?

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 09:43

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Harvesting organs. There is no evidence that the IDF are harvesting organs

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:44

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:39

A dodgy hospital in the 90s had a consent scandal which affected Israelis and Palestinians. Similar scandals have happened at hospitals here in the UK, which probably affected ethnic minorities too but it isn’t reasonable to say based on that “the British Army harvests organs from Muslims”. In this case the job is to invoke the blood libel. No the IDF does not harvest organs and yes it’s racist.

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It’s as racists as suggesting that because they have similar characteristics as terrorists they’re terrorists unless proven innocent.

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 09:47

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:45

@backtowinter

Historically there is evidence of this. Not saying there is evidence it is going on currently.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

The head of a forensic institute is not the IDF which is what you posted. I'm sure you had your reasons.

This thread is batshit. Peak Mumsnet

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:48

@backtowinter so how come in the article the Israeli military confirmed the practice took place?

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 10:04

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:44

It’s as racists as suggesting that because they have similar characteristics as terrorists they’re terrorists unless proven innocent.

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Not if one of the characteristics I specified wasn’t “race” lmao

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 10:05

A while ago I saw an old interview with someone from the Israeli "skin bank", didn't even know such a thing existed. They said they harvested skin from Palestinian soldiers and other foreigners. I'll try to dig for that video.

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 10:08

@cauliflowerwaterfall classic. When you can't justify Israel's atrocities, you curse Mumsnet and call everyone who doesn't agree with your views antisemitic.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 10:11

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:48

@backtowinter so how come in the article the Israeli military confirmed the practice took place?

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Because someone accused the IDF of organ harvesting based on that one hospital in the 90s, like you did

paladium · 08/12/2023 10:14

@cauliflowerwaterfall so you are saying their own confirmation that it took place in the past was not an admission that it took place in the past?

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 10:14

Reminded of the famous quote from Jean Paul Sartre

Why Can't Gazans Leave?
Xenia · 08/12/2023 10:18

Israel has a much better regime than most of the regimes around its borders. It is a beacon of cope in a sea of terrible regimes from Iran to Saudi. Some of those nations are enemies of the UK. Iran calls the UK the little Satan so much does it hate us. Every Israeli has a right to vote including arab Israeli citizens. Some posters on MN seem to like to portray Israel in a very unfair way which does not represent the facts.

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 10:19

paladium · 08/12/2023 10:14

@cauliflowerwaterfall so you are saying their own confirmation that it took place in the past was not an admission that it took place in the past?

It's bizarre logic isn't it

And no UK hospitals given where similar shenanigans were happening - the retained tissues scandal in the UK was about something completely different and only remotely related by way of lack of consent

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 10:20

@cauliflowerwaterfall Personally I can guarantee you I'm not concerned at all with what religion you have or what you or anyone else believes in. I'm discussing facts of injustice and genocide that are taking place right as we speak. I'm concerned with almost 10000 children who've been mercilessly bombed to death. I'm concerned with innocent civilians trapped in hunger, dehydration, bombardment and destruction with literally no where to escape it.

You want to believe you are persecuted even though no one here has mentioned anything about your religion , you do you.