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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
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26
Queucumber · 24/11/2023 22:06

You don’t need to leave MN to see examples of deniers. I was asked to provide evidence of Hamas raping women and girls. They wanted clickable links to the videos in order to believe it happened.

What can you do with people like that?

noblegiraffe · 24/11/2023 22:18

ProvincialLady1 · 24/11/2023 21:42

She may mean the website where they shared evidence and photographs from the massacre, but that was definitely not a fake Hamas website. It was created to counter the horrific levels of denial and minimisation which is the subject of this thread.

Oh, I think she is contributing to the horrific levels of denial and minimisation.

Sussurations · 24/11/2023 22:23

There are always people who when faced with facts that contradict what they would like to be true, come up with the ‘I wasn’t there, you weren’t there’ response like it’s a massive gotcha. If we could never be certain that something had happened unless we were actually there, we wouldn’t know much, would we? There are survivors of the 10 October massacre, there are witnesses, there is video evidence, for heaven’s sake.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 22:32

The fake Hamas website was set up about a week ago using Wix I’m trying to link the data

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 22:36

I can’t link it, this is a screen shot

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
Shhhhivegotasecret · 24/11/2023 22:46

Robert Crampton has written an excellent piece in The Times - worth a read

noblegiraffe · 24/11/2023 22:53

The fake Hamas website was set up about a week ago using Wix I’m trying to link the data

Apologies, I thought you meant the IDF were uploading fake videos. It turns out that some people who appear to be Israeli are uploading real videos from Hamas of the atrocities to a website called Hamas.com.

I guess if Hamas weren't proud of what they did, they wouldn't have videoed it in the first place.

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 22:55

@Livinginanotherworld that explains a lot.
@Humdingerydoo it's back again (mind your grammar)

ProvincialLady1 · 24/11/2023 23:07

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 21:34

Just for clarity, the "anti Israel at worse" comment that was reported to CST was her friend's son saying that Israel should give back land to the Palestinians in front of a Jewish child. When questioned if the boy in question meant the West Bank or if he meant all of Israel, the poster wasn't sure but assumed it was the former. She made this assumption based on absolutely nothing. I tried explaining that depending on what he actually said, it's very possible his comment was anti-Semitic at which point the poster decided to ignore everything I was saying and that her friend's son had definitely not said anything wrong. That's how she came to the conclusion anti-Semitism is exaggerated in order for CST to get more money.

Oh and the other thing that's incorrectly reported as being anti-Semitic is when people (including this poster) try to imply that Starmer only supports Israel's right to defend itself against a terrorist organisation because he's married to a Jew.

Hope that clarifies this poster's stance on it all.

It definitely does! Thank you.

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 23:39

@Humdingerydoo @ProvincialLady1
Keir Starmer is affected by his wife’s family and roots and has gone on to say as much publicly. For some reason Humdinger cannot understand the difference between the meaning of ‘affect’ and ‘effect’. She agrees he is affected but deliberately equates that to that being the same thing as ‘Starmer only supports Israel's right to defend itself against a terrorist organisation because he's married to a Jew.’ Actually she went as far as saying ‘affects’ means it’s because his wife tells him to.

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 23:40

I have now posted the data on CST on its own thread.

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 23:42

@Stomacharmeleon English lessons are back on! Such fun.

noblegiraffe · 24/11/2023 23:45

People wittering on about Starmer's wife being Jewish tend to have an agenda.

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 23:52

Related to this op. I genuinely don’t understand why people are so keen on discrediting the incidents of 7/10. A group of young angry oppressed men who have been caged since birth and have hated the Israel for their losses finally break through and know this is the day they die. They did despicable things, why is that so hard to believe. Yea clearly some lies re beheaded babies and no scientific evidence was shared (rape kits etc) but given the scenario it seems plausible given where they were coming from. (Plausible re rape not beheaded babies)

What is not clear is in the 790 civilians reported by Israel who died that day, how many were killed/burnt by ‘friendly fire’. Probably significant given 200 Hamas were burnt by Israeli Defence beyond recognition and obviously they weren’t all huddled in a room, they had Israelis with them as that is what they came to do. Harm Israeli people or kidnap them. There is no such thing as precision scorching of humans so definitely quite a few scorched bodies were done by the Israeli forces in addition to the aerial shots from the helicopter. We will never know how many Israel killed but 200 mistakes is a lot given the total number of reported (1200).

noblegiraffe · 24/11/2023 23:58

You don't understand why people might discredit the events that might be blamed on Hamas because they haven't spotted your trick of blaming them on Israel?

basculin · 25/11/2023 00:16

group of young angry oppressed men who have been caged since birth and have hated the Israel for their losses finally break through and know this is the day they die.

You sound almost sympathetic.

25milesfromhome · 25/11/2023 00:28

@notsoready4school Romanticising terrorists much? Those poor, poor oppressed young men, ready to break through, ready to die this day, but not before raping, murdering and torturing hundreds of adults, children and babies in their pursuit of freedom and justice.

etmoiandme · 25/11/2023 00:41

@notsoready4school
A group of young angry oppressed men who have been caged since birth and have hated the Israel for their losses finally break through and know this is the day they die

What were they caged in? They're not battery hens, they're terrorists.

Also it's just "Israel" not "the Israel". I can see you're pretty eager to point out problematic grammar, so I'll just assume your gratitude to me for highlighting that error.

notsoready4school · 25/11/2023 00:44

25milesfromhome · 25/11/2023 00:28

@notsoready4school Romanticising terrorists much? Those poor, poor oppressed young men, ready to break through, ready to die this day, but not before raping, murdering and torturing hundreds of adults, children and babies in their pursuit of freedom and justice.

There is nothing romantic about being filled with hatred and anger.

notsoready4school · 25/11/2023 00:49

etmoiandme · 25/11/2023 00:41

@notsoready4school
A group of young angry oppressed men who have been caged since birth and have hated the Israel for their losses finally break through and know this is the day they die

What were they caged in? They're not battery hens, they're terrorists.

Also it's just "Israel" not "the Israel". I can see you're pretty eager to point out problematic grammar, so I'll just assume your gratitude to me for highlighting that error.

Read up about Gaza - Israel a bit, pre this recent war.

Typo, should have been Israelis but you got me!

etmoiandme · 25/11/2023 00:50

@notsoready4school I've been reading about it for 30 years, so rest assured you're the last person I need an education from.

25milesfromhome · 25/11/2023 00:56

notsoready4school · 25/11/2023 00:44

There is nothing romantic about being filled with hatred and anger.

Ennobling? Adulating? Idolising? Sympathising? All those words work just as well for your framing Hamas’s depraved massacre as an understandable response to oppression, so feel free to pick the one you like best.

Trulywonderful · 25/11/2023 01:02

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 23:42

@Stomacharmeleon English lessons are back on! Such fun.

It is bloody offensive considering some people don't have English as their first language

Trulywonderful · 25/11/2023 01:03

Queucumber · 24/11/2023 22:06

You don’t need to leave MN to see examples of deniers. I was asked to provide evidence of Hamas raping women and girls. They wanted clickable links to the videos in order to believe it happened.

What can you do with people like that?

😮

Speechless and that doesn't happen often

Humdingerydoo · 25/11/2023 01:07

Trulywonderful · 25/11/2023 01:02

It is bloody offensive considering some people don't have English as their first language

Historically, this poster hasn't been overly concerned about being offensive.

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