Shocked by the racist signs at marches

[Pigeotto]

Maybe I’m just severely naive but I’m honestly just shocked at the levels of racism of some of the signs at these marches. It’s just caught me really, really off guard.

So what. Ukraine didn’t exist as a country until the collapse of the USSR in 1991. Prior to that, except for an aborted attempted to gain independence from 1918-1919 when the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian Tsar, they have not been a sovereign nation ever. They have always been a region within a larger empire.

Just like Palestine.

If you can’t defend the people of Palestine’s aspirations to statehood because these aspirations didn’t exist until 1948, then Ukraine has even less right to be independent from Russia as it didn’t exist as a sovereign state until 1991.

But there won't be a Hamas soon. Surely, Israel isn't going to have killed 11,000 innocent people including over 4,000 children, collateral damage in the pursuit of Hamas only to not defeat them

Why on earth would you think that?

How many civilians died during the war on Terror? Do you think the “west” won then?

It’s called the Palestinian Authority Martyr’s Fund.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Excuse the wiki link, but it will get you started.

Where have you been since October 7th? Do you think Hamas is being given a choice?

My bad. I keep seeing posters say that Israel needs to kill all these innocent people to get to Hamas, to make sure Hamas can't attack Israel ever again.

@Trulywonderful a land mass not used by people much in between?

I'm sorry but you can try and re write history as much as you want but that is clearly not true

Do you think it is working?
I don't think they have dented Hamas much at all. they are too well hidden in tunnels etc. They are just bombing the shit out of everyone in the hope that eventually enough people will die.

But actually getting rid of Hamas? Every death brings Hamas a new recruit, as people's fury with Israel grows

But the fact is that fellow marchers happily continued to march alongside these racists. They were not challenged. They were not told to leave.

Bullshit. They were challenged. Photos taken and reports to the police were made. No one “happily marched alongside” but neither did anyone stoop to violence and attack these marchers as most of us are pacifists.

What on earth have your questions got to do with my posters? Just seems like you are trying to change the subject.

Anyway I can't imagine there are many posters on mumsnet that don't want a ceasefire on both sides. Though I do understand the politics and tactics behind Israel holding off a ceasefire as I explain when the conversation is about that. Yes I of course I the conflict to end. The death of a single child whether Gazen or Israeli is too much. I don't personally know a any Jewish or Muslim people that don't feel this way. That doesn't mean we can't all call out hate crimes in the UK as well. It also doesn't mean we should let the history of the conflict be distorted to fan more hate within our communities.

Well of course you’re shocked. It doesn’t fit the narrative. Thank goodness for X, the rise of independent journalism and other social media is all I can say. If not for that would all just accept what we are spoon fed by the main steam media. Multiple incidents of terrifying bigotry on those marches, by both sides yet all anyone wanted to focus on was the “Far Right” contingent, who were actually hugely in the minority and contained and moved on very early in the day. The desperation to keep that narrative on track was laughable, eg channel 4 releasing their little statement saying how peaceful it had been and then having to retract and delete within hours. The police with their biased statement that implied that the Right Wingers had affected their policing for the whole day yet we later saw the most disgusting racism, violence and anti semitism from some of the “Pro Palestine” marchers, the statement again retracted later.

Those marches were arranged by radical left wing types and several of the Muslim organisations were shown to have known “ex” Hamas members/leaders behind them. All this can be proven if people care to look beyond the end of their noses.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/

The PA fund is for families of innocent victims killed in peaceful protest or arrested and imprisoned without due process. These are usually men, and it pays an income to their widows and orphaned children.

The Hamas fund pays for attacks/suicide bombs done by terrorist fighters.

The two funds are not one and the same.

Are they deserving of it every time their government carries out something wrong.
What would be the state of the UK if we applied that logic here with our history

The above is why I find the narrative that Israel created Hamas uncomfortable. The Manchester bomber motives were considered to be “revenge” so as you say with our history where on earth does that leave us.

@RebekaTuwin so you think Hamas will be defeated? We will have to agree to disagree.

Sorry but it isn't me that is rewriting history. The land was not used much since the Jews first owned it and didn't have a very large population pre Israel declaring a state. Those are facts. It is not important to the current conversation or conflict because the only thing that matters are ALL the people currently living on the land. However if someone is trying to distort history to fan hate then it needs to be corrected.

Population of pre-Mandate Palestine was 800k about 80k of whom were Jewish, the rest a mix of Turks, Bedouins, Muslim & Christian Arabs, & European ex-pats.

Over 500k of that initial 800k were Arabs who arrived between 1932 & 1944 attracted by the Yishuv's burgeoning finances.

My bad. I keep seeing posters say that Israel needs to kill all these innocent people to get to Hamas, to make sure Hamas can't attack Israel ever again.

That is the general response to an attack, whether you agree with it or not countries do tend to not retaliate. However I don’t think Israel will succeed in destroying Hamas, they may destabilise them & damage them but not destroy.

Unless you are a woman of course.

Your information isn’t quite accurate.

The right wing counter protesters were not a contingent of the March. They showed up to protest against the March. They were moved on from the Cenotaph in the morning (after many being arrested as it was a mile away from our route) and then they came looking for trouble and attacked the main peace rally all day along different parts of our route, trying to get to us through the police & barriers and were still doing so in Parliament square in the evening. I was there.

”On Saturday morning, far-right counter-protesters had clashed with police near the Cenotaph in Whitehall, ahead of an Armistice Day service. Scuffles broke out as police attempted to stop a crowd of far-right activists, Islamophobes and football supporters carrying St George’s flags marching along the Embankment towards Whitehall shortly after 10am.
The group, which had been chanting “England til I die” pushed through the police barrier, with some shouting “let’s have them” as officers hit out with batons. Further clashes took place in Chinatown with counter-protesters chanting: “You’re not English any more” towards officers. The Met said officers had “faced aggression from counter-protesters who are in the area in significant numbers”.
Tommy Robinson, founder and former leader of the far-right English Defence League, was seen among the crowds protesters.
There were further clashes into the evening, including a crowd of roughly 150 rightwing protesters in Parliament Square. According to the BBC, an offensive chant about Allah was chanted and a Palestinian flag was ripped up. By Saturday night, police said there had been 126 arrests and nine officers had been hurt during the clashes.
Met assistant commissioner Matt Twist said the violence from rightwing protesters towards the police “was extraordinary and deeply concerning”. He said the “intense debate about protest and policing” had contributed to an increase in tensions.”

Of the Pro-peace/ceasefire march of 300,000 people it was reported
”While the pro-Palestinian demonstration was peaceful, many of those present chanted “from the river to the sea”, the saying identified by many as indicating support for the elimination of the state of Israel. Police also said they were investigating at least five allegations of hate crimes including antisemitic and racist chants and placards displayed on the march.”

Assuming all 5 allegations of racism/amtisemitism were true (and we reported all that we saw), then that represents 0.002% of propeace protesters that could be construed as pro Hamas and antisemitic. Meaning that 99.998% were not racist, were not antisemitic, and were not pro Hamas/terrorism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/11/hundreds-of-thousands-rally-for-gaza-in-london-as-police-arrest-far-right-protesters

I was simply correcting a poster that was stating something factual wrong

I totally support the two state solution and hate the illegal settlements, they need to stop.

The only thing that matters now is the all the people that currently live on the land. Therefore as we cannot go back in time everyones rights to live in there own homes currently need to be excepted and safeguarded.

Personally I would like everyone that lives on the land to integrate better and this to be policed in the west bank and Gaza by an independent authority until it is safe for them to self govern. Also the independent authority/UN/whatever needs to police the borders and stop rockets extra.

No, includes women.

My husband was at the march on Saturday, we are Jewish and he wore his kippah. He didn't experience any antisemitism, nor did he see any or hear anything antisemitic over several hours there.

Obviously we know there were some antisemitic placards and behaviours and that sucks, but I think we need to resist any narrative that suggests this was widespread. It's a shame police couldn't deal with more of them at the time but they had to waste time and energy babysitting the toytown fascists summoned by the now ex-home secretary. 🙄

@Fizzadora which part of the post you responded to didn't apply to women?

Yes I do think they will be defeated. I do fear that Israel’s use of excessive military force and indiscriminate bombing of civilians- their war crimes- coukd create a new generation of terrorists in a new terror gang.

Yes, the original post stated that Hamas have a separate fund to the PA and I didn’t suggest any different. I also didn’t suggest some of it isn’t above board.

The PAMF does pay out to families of innocent victims killed or imprisoned without charge, but it also pays out to families whose relatives carried out suicide attacks and bombings, and prisoners who have committed violent attacks. It’s system that’s open to abuse like any other.

Indeed. I watched a very interesting YouTube about Palestinian Christians recently. It included interviews with Muslims and many of both religions seemed basically secular. Its not a Liberal western democracy anymore than Israel is of course. The older generation disapprove of mixed marriages for example. But then again Orthodox Jewish settlers are not mad keen on multiculturalism either. The West Bank is not Iran though.

I was there too and being Jewish was with many male Jewish protesters who were wearing their kippah. I also saw a few Orthodox Jews and a few rabbis as well. I didn’t experience any antiSemitism and saw only one antisemitic placard which a group of four of us did challenge, the person didn’t realise and binned it. It was one that showed the Star of David with blood dripping off it. They intended it to represent the flag of Israel & Israel’s war crimes. We gently said the star is a universal symbol of the Jewish faith, so not really the best way to express Israel’s war crimes. It was a friendly and peaceful exchange to educate someone who didn’t have hateful intent.

It wasn’t widespread at all. It was Braverman’s prejudiced narrative to call these hate marches and mobs and proHamas- it’s what got her the sack.