Shocked by the racist signs at marches

[Pigeotto]

Maybe I’m just severely naive but I’m honestly just shocked at the levels of racism of some of the signs at these marches. It’s just caught me really, really off guard.

There was one in a newspaper on Monday with Star of David and a Swastica interlinked. Another saying Gaza the new Auswich. The police do nothing. Others wearing headbands with Hamas on. They should be arresting people with inflammatory signs and headbands like these and let the peaceful matches go ahead.

Best post on the entire thread! Thank you!

I could add a few more of my own but I will let your important message just stand as it is!

Of course that’s not what I was saying, but I think you know that.

@ChalkWitch So what was your point in saying that "Palestine has never been a sovereign state"?

Nation states are a very 19th century concept. Settlers always say 'Oh country X wasn't a real state with a flag , an anthem , a civil service , an army ' - delete as appropriate. There was no state till we set it up.

It usually goes with ' There was nobody here really , just wandering tribes.'
Just saying.
We've heard it all before 🇮🇪

@Ecdysiast in response to a previous poster, pointing out that it’s not as simple as referring back to 1947. How far back do you go? It is a reductive and simplistic approach but once again, I think you know exactly what I was saying but chose to be obtuse.

The history is obviously important and both sides have different views on that but we are where we are. I tihnk it was a bit unfair further up to say that suggesting Western democracies might be better states and systems than dictatorships or theocracies in places like Saudi and Iran is some kind of white saviour comment. I have no problem with different countries keeping to themselves and doing what the like - even the Taliban in Afghanistan living their own version of things and the regime in Iran and that in Saudi. However I am free to say they are utterly dreadful regimes and that democracies are the best systems mankind has invented. It is not illegal to say that. Indeed loads of people come to the UK from some of those countries abroad precisely because they pretty much detest those brutal regimes.

@ChalkWitch No, I'm not obtuse, or 'choosing to be obtuse' (thanks though). But I think @Abhannmor has articulated your position quite well so no need for anything further.

@Xenia No, but saying that it takes 2-3 generations of living in the West to develop a distaste for Muslim countries and how they treat their women is ignorant and hateful, which is why that comment was removed by MN.

Mind reading and historical revisionism are ever the impressive skillset.

@caringcarer an OP on a different thread suggested googling the definitions of some of the images that were antisemitic - which I actually did. Makes for interesting reading on why some images are deemed as antisemitic and rightly so those people who feel that it is necessary for them to make up placards like this should be justifiably questioned by the authorities.

However, your comment re "headbands with Hamas on". The Arabic writing on those headbands is literally translated as the declaration of faith in one God. The covered faces in that specific image are sinister, as is a swastika being waved about but the wording on the bands is not.

Personal take - any I am by no means claiming to have the "end all and be all solution here": any intellectually honest approach will have to go at least as far back as the birth of the Zionist movement (whilst taking into account its historical roots as well as its then contemporary ones).

Debating over, literally, Biblical history (more like: mythology with snippets of historical information strewn in) is equally as useless as pretending the whole conflict began on 7 October.

At the same time, we should also be questioning the concept that history somehow lends a deeper level of legitimacy to a narrative than current facts do. And, although I am "pro-Palestinian" so to speak (that is an over-simplification but not the point here) I am going to, very deliberately, use an Israeli example: while it may be true that, 150 years ago, there was no Tel Aviv, it is also very much true that Tel Aviv exists today. Tel Aviv has very little "history based" legitimacy for its existence - and yet: if anyone were to say "raze it to the ground and let the people go live elsewhere" they would - rightly so! - be called advocates for ethnic cleansing. At best!

By this, I do not mean to say "status quo is right" - it is clearly not. The occupation, to name but one example, is very much a feature of the status quo that must not be allowed to prevail. What I AM saying is that I genuinely don´t believe that any of this can be successfully addressed by picking some necessariy arbitrary point in time and saying "well, this is the basis for what is right and legitimate".

At its most basic level, both Jews and Palestinians have valid historical
and indigenous claims to the land, which should be honoured on all sides- they all have the right to a homeland, self determination and freedom.
I agree the historical legitimacy debate shouldn’t be the focus and I wouldn’t dream of claiming Palestinians don’t belong there but it’s madness inducing and offensive to see Israel simplistically reframed as a white settler/colonialist state, particularly for Mizrahim.

The poster meant this:

https://news.sky.com/story/met-appeals-for-help-identifying-protesters-holding-hate-crime-placards-during-pro-palestinian-march-13006147

So if people had been marching with openly racist placards against muslims and Palestinians are you saying that the only reaction would have been to have a word with them and take photos and tell the police so they could deal with it later?

Because I very much doubt it. The anti-semitic placards were tolerated in the way they were because being racist against Jews was not seen as being too bad ( at best; it would have been actively agreed with by others).

@starfleet Sky News reported a few marchers wearing headbands supporting Hammas. I think it was an image of the paragliders.

Maybe I'm a coward, but I would avoid physical confrontations with people holding offensive placards. I'd go with the police, that's what they are there for.

What exactly is the point of this thread given that it is a virtually identical topic to another thread that has over 1000 comments ?

It’s seems like each day with more and more Palestinians being killed we see more deflection by some posters recycling moral outrage. this thread also has a side of casual racism and hate speech thrown in just for ironic good measure. Hundreds of thousands of people have attended the various marches across this country and others. They have been attended by a broad spectrum of people. A minority of those people have carried signs which are offensive. For the most part, these have been quite rightly picked up by authorities and reported on by the media.

yet instead of focusing on the ongoing genocide, we have yet another thread trying to distract from that. We’re actually here talking about placards, when we should be talking about the fact that in Gaza, it’s being reported they are having to dig mass graves outside hospitals to bury the dead, just to stop their bodies getting eaten by dogs.

Yes this is exactly it. Very well said.

Glad to see some common sense - it's rare on some of these threads. I despair at times.

But this thread is about placards. You don’t have to be here if you don’t want to, there are multiple threads about Palestinian deaths, with new ones getting started every day. I haven’t seen anyone crashing onto those threads berating people for talking about their subject. Just because racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism at the marches and demonstrations doesn’t bother you, it doesn’t mean others aren’t allowed to discuss it.

Yes. It's causing a huge amount of anxiety but it seems we're not allowed to talk about it.

do not put words in my mouth or throw assumptions. I did not say “racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism” at the marches didn’t bother me. nor that others aren’t allowed to discuss it. It’s been discussed - extensively- on several threads.

but yes forgive me if I think comparatively the grotesque reality of what Israel is doing in Gaza and people being intentionally bombed and starved on a daily basis, to such a degree that they’re having to be buried en masse, should warrant more attention than offensive placards. so we can agree to disagree.

This one is offensive. Not all signs are antisemitic 🙄

Totally agree. I hate all the “Palestine wasn’t even a country until the colonisers invented it” bollocks.

regardless of borders, flags, national anthems, etc people lived there. They had houses, farmed the land, etc. it wasn’t an empty space. Regardless of whether they were Jordanians, Turks, whatever the people who were there and their descendants have a right to be there. Not be ordered to shove up for others.