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Conflict in the Middle East

Shocked by the racist signs at marches

908 replies

Pigeotto · 14/11/2023 07:14

Maybe I’m just severely naive but I’m honestly just shocked at the levels of racism of some of the signs at these marches. It’s just caught me really, really off guard.

OP posts:
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Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 17:46

@Jupitersstorm I have just read aghast the Audacity of Jews having the 'privilege' of bomb shelters. How dare they try and protect themselves? What's wrong with people?

mollyfolk · 15/11/2023 18:19

Stomacharmeleon · 14/11/2023 22:48

@mollyfolk did you purposely miss out the large chunk of that post where £300 million a year is eaten up in paying terrorists off? You know to do their dirty work for them?

Nope I didn’t. I’m not arguing that Hamas are upstanding citizens. In fact it was a serious misstep by the Israeli government to allow for the Qatar money. I’m just stating a fact - not all aid in Gaza is channeled through Hamas like your post suggests.

mollyfolk · 15/11/2023 18:30

Bigminnie1 · 15/11/2023 09:18

The big problem I see is that every time Jewish people post that their worries about the increase in anti- semitism, so many people try to shut us down. They say it's not happening. They say they don't see it. They don't believe us.

I think there are also differing opinions to what anti semitism is.

the ihra definition of antisemitism is controversial. The large human rights organizations including human rights organizations from within Israel do not agree with it - they see it as an attempt to muzzle any criticism of Israeli policies and authorities.

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 18:35

@mollyfolk surely if it's important enough for someone to post about then it should be taken seriously not told ' under IHRA rules it doesn't constitute antisemitism'.
Also what about people not in Israel? You know Jewish people?

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 15/11/2023 18:47

I am still shocked that the police spoke to the Asian women with the pictures of Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman. How can that be racist if is was done by the person of Asian descent? It is a joke. There is a difference when black people use certain words to each other but if anyone non black said it would be racist because of the power dynamics and history of the word. And the people calling it racist are the same people who say everything is "woke." And how people blame everything on racism.

RebekaTuwin · 15/11/2023 19:00

victarion · 14/11/2023 12:03

The people standing next to her don't seem particularly bothered. And we don't know who took the photo, it could have been a friend.

A friend took the photo and then sent it to the police to then publish in an appeal for information about her identity? This friend does that and doesn’t say who she is?

RebekaTuwin · 15/11/2023 19:04

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 17:46

@Jupitersstorm I have just read aghast the Audacity of Jews having the 'privilege' of bomb shelters. How dare they try and protect themselves? What's wrong with people?

It is a fact that Arab-Israeli communities, these are Israeli citizens, do not get funded by the government for bomb shelters.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arabs-living-israels-negev-desert-are-sitting-ducks-hamas-rcna120168

Israel is an apartheid society. It’s one of the reasons why I left Israel.

No bomb shelters, no sirens, no Iron Dome: Israel’s long-neglected Arab Bedouins

Targeted by Hamas and lacking protection from Israel, at least 15 Bedouins were killed in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arabs-living-israels-negev-desert-are-sitting-ducks-hamas-rcna120168

mollyfolk · 15/11/2023 19:10

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 18:35

@mollyfolk surely if it's important enough for someone to post about then it should be taken seriously not told ' under IHRA rules it doesn't constitute antisemitism'.
Also what about people not in Israel? You know Jewish people?

I’m not sure if you understand my point. The IHRA don’t have rules - they have a definition of anti semitism that has been accepted by some countries as “the definition” but it is highly controversial and critized by rights groups. The definition itself mentions Israel!

So the very definition of anti semitism is controversial and that’s also why some people see some signs as highly antisemitic and others don’t .

noblegiraffe · 15/11/2023 19:15

The IHRA don’t have rules - they have a definition of anti semitism that has been accepted by some countries

...including the UK government, and the Welsh and Scottish governments.

noblegiraffe · 15/11/2023 19:17

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 15/11/2023 18:47

I am still shocked that the police spoke to the Asian women with the pictures of Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman. How can that be racist if is was done by the person of Asian descent? It is a joke. There is a difference when black people use certain words to each other but if anyone non black said it would be racist because of the power dynamics and history of the word. And the people calling it racist are the same people who say everything is "woke." And how people blame everything on racism.

A black councillor was found guilty in court of racial harassment for calling an Asian opponent a coconut, so presumably the courts disagree with you.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 15/11/2023 19:18

It's absolutely extraordinary how the very few threads about anti - semitism are hijacked by users just to echo everything they have said on the hundreds of other threads created focusing on what they see as genocide by Israel, etc, ad infinitum

Is it really all that surprising though?

Unfortunately there are a number of MNers - often those whose posts run into dozens if not hundreds, and who are constantly deleted - who are consumed with loathing of Israel and its people and apparently can't help themselves

Jupitersstorm · 15/11/2023 19:38

Puzzledandpissedoff · 15/11/2023 19:18

It's absolutely extraordinary how the very few threads about anti - semitism are hijacked by users just to echo everything they have said on the hundreds of other threads created focusing on what they see as genocide by Israel, etc, ad infinitum

Is it really all that surprising though?

Unfortunately there are a number of MNers - often those whose posts run into dozens if not hundreds, and who are constantly deleted - who are consumed with loathing of Israel and its people and apparently can't help themselves

...and some users create multiple usernames with different accounts and respond to posts with maybe five posts all from the same user with different user names.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so outrageous.

Jupitersstorm · 15/11/2023 19:41

Anyhow, they can carry on having conversations with each other but it won't stop Israel continuing to eradicate Hamas - or stop until all the hostages have been released. I wish them joy.

victarion · 15/11/2023 19:42

RebekaTuwin · 15/11/2023 19:00

A friend took the photo and then sent it to the police to then publish in an appeal for information about her identity? This friend does that and doesn’t say who she is?

🙄

Or a friend took the photo, posted it on social media and someone else brought it to the attention of the police.

Ecdysiast · 15/11/2023 19:57

Sugaristheenemy · 15/11/2023 15:32

Maybe start a thread about it then

I think Ecdysiast was* *just making the point there are arseholes on both sides.

Yes, my point in sharing the video was just that haters can be found everywhere among human beings...so what do we do?

Should we demonize the entire religious/ethnic/national group that a group of haters happens to belong to?

Someone could watch that video of Israelis mocking the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and say demeaning things about Jews because the people in the video are Jewish. Or they can watch it and say the people in the video are childish, arrogant a-holes without generalising about their entire group.

My point is, the MN threads I've seen about 'racism in marches' for Palestine seem to be demonizing all marchers and their effort to call for a ceasefire by pointing to the actions/placards a few individuals. There were some racist placards there? Down with all 300,000 marching racists!
Generalising in that way is exactly how racism operates.

Israeli TikTokers mocking embattled Palestinians goes viral in Israel

An old Israeli song has resurfaced in one of the latest Israeli TikTok trends meant to make fun of Palestinians and their living conditions amid Israel's ong...

https://youtu.be/_mwcFEpAYkU?feature=shared

victarion · 15/11/2023 20:00

Ecdysiast · 15/11/2023 19:57

Yes, my point in sharing the video was just that haters can be found everywhere among human beings...so what do we do?

Should we demonize the entire religious/ethnic/national group that a group of haters happens to belong to?

Someone could watch that video of Israelis mocking the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and say demeaning things about Jews because the people in the video are Jewish. Or they can watch it and say the people in the video are childish, arrogant a-holes without generalising about their entire group.

My point is, the MN threads I've seen about 'racism in marches' for Palestine seem to be demonizing all marchers and their effort to call for a ceasefire by pointing to the actions/placards a few individuals. There were some racist placards there? Down with all 300,000 marching racists!
Generalising in that way is exactly how racism operates.

"Marchers" aren't a racial or ethnic group. I don't think every single person there is racist but making generalisations about people who attend a protest is not the same as making generalisations about Jewish people.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 15/11/2023 20:00

Jupitersstorm · 15/11/2023 16:16

"These marches are an outlet for Muslims to come together with other people who have the empathy and kindness for the Palestinians."

I am genuinely curious - why is it for Muslims? I thought the marches were calling for a ceasefire - and who are these "other people". It feels as though if you think the default position is for Muslims to march which makes it a religion issue. I thought it was for peace.

I was explaining specifically how the Muslim people who I’m close to have been feeling these past 38 days, because I felt like the thread had got to place that wasn’t productive for anyone. There was a shit tonne of anti-Muslim hate, so I was explaining why some may be kicking back on the thread as a whole.

I should probably put the disclaimer that the Muslims that I’m drawing reference from in my previous post do also include atheists, but their parents have hailed from Muslim-majority countries, but I referred to them all as Muslims as I didn’t want to make my post to be too convoluted.

Separately, most of the Jewish people that I’m close to are definitely more culturally than religiously Jewish, but I’ve eaten more Iftar dinners and Shabbat dinners than I can count, so I get best of both worlds nonetheless.

So of course it isn’t just for Muslims, or a default position for them, and I don’t actually feel that it’s a religious issue, it is a march for peace.

For some people, however, they don’t feel that the march will achieve anything politically but they attend anyway because they want to come together with others and feel a sense of togetherness in a time of sorrow and exhaustion. This is very human, so applies to anyone who has been affected.

In my own life, it’s the Muslim and Jewish people that I’m close to that are affected most right now. I was writing from that perspective. They feel what’s happening as if it were happening to them. I was trying to remind Truly of that.

Another disclaimer, though: I’m fully aware that my own experience isn’t representative of the whole, especially as the people closest to me also happen to be either Muslim and/or Jewish mostly, but we all write things based on our own life experiences.

I think that @Trulywonderful definitely understood what my post was trying to do and I appreciated her thoughtful response.

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 20:03

@RebekaTuwin I respect your opinion but it's one I don't share sorry.

Jupitersstorm · 15/11/2023 20:08

That was a lovely post.

Thank you.

Ecdysiast · 15/11/2023 20:10

victarion · 15/11/2023 20:00

"Marchers" aren't a racial or ethnic group. I don't think every single person there is racist but making generalisations about people who attend a protest is not the same as making generalisations about Jewish people.

@victarion Correct, marchers are not a racial or ethnic group, but generalising about everyone in a group based on the actions of a few is how racism works. Demonising all marchers because of the actions of a few is unfair and ignorant.

But it is a convenient way of trying to undermine their call for a ceasefire.

Trulywonderful · 15/11/2023 20:27

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 17:46

@Jupitersstorm I have just read aghast the Audacity of Jews having the 'privilege' of bomb shelters. How dare they try and protect themselves? What's wrong with people?

People were similarly ridiculous about the Ukraine bomb shelters. There is no helping stupid people that object to others trying to protect themselves.

It is like complaining that some kids are wearing cycle helmets to school and others aren't. Therefore the helmets shouldn't be allowed or something. Not the fault of the kids whose parents paid for their helmets but the fault of the parents that didn't. Yes some kids parents can't afford helmets. However then surely charities or other organisations should step in and help before an accident happens.

RebekaTuwin · 15/11/2023 20:31

Stomacharmeleon · 15/11/2023 20:03

@RebekaTuwin I respect your opinion but it's one I don't share sorry.

So, are you saying if we were regularly bombed by say, the French shooting rockets over the channel, it would not be audacity for the U.K. to fund and have bomb shelters only for ethnic English (white, Anglo-Saxon christians), but provide no bomb shelters for other nonEnglish ethnicity or nonChristian British citizens?

I am trying to understand what part of my opinion you do not agree with?

ferntwist · 16/11/2023 12:39

Me too OP. Utterly depressing. I’m also feeling really angry and sad at the posters of the kidnapped Israeli civilians being torn down. It’s happened on one display at the end of our street twice. Where’s the humanity? You can support a Palestinian state without this

Ecdysiast · 16/11/2023 13:00

ferntwist · 16/11/2023 12:39

Me too OP. Utterly depressing. I’m also feeling really angry and sad at the posters of the kidnapped Israeli civilians being torn down. It’s happened on one display at the end of our street twice. Where’s the humanity? You can support a Palestinian state without this

Its kind of astounding that while an entire population is currently being wiped off the map in Gaza, the thing you find so 'utterly depressing' in the world is some idiots climbing on a memorial site.