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Conflict in the Middle East

What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

1000 replies

Flapjacker48 · 05/11/2023 09:34

It won't change UK government policy. It won't result in a ceasefire in Gaza. It won't magically resolve the situation in Palestine.

Same as all the other big marches - War in Iraq etc. Changed nothing.

OP posts:
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Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 09:36

Would it make any difference to your views or beliefs if the source was LBC rather than the Daily Mail

Er..no. Have anyone like the BBC or a paper (that’s not a tabloid) reported on this?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/11/2023 09:38

noblegiraffe · 09/11/2023 21:59

So on the one hand Israel's actions brought about Hamas and their continued actions in Palestine are creating new members of Hamas daily and yet on the other hand it should be entirely disbelieved that anyone in Gaza supports Hamas at all?

Well noticed, noblegiraffe, and then there are the many polls - predictably ignored on here - which suggest the majority still support Hamas

There's a great deal said about "innocent civilians", and certainly that applies to many small children who are too young to support anyone, but I have to wonder just how innocent anyone who'll support Hamas can be considered to be

ScribblingPixie · 10/11/2023 09:39

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 09:36

Would it make any difference to your views or beliefs if the source was LBC rather than the Daily Mail

Er..no. Have anyone like the BBC or a paper (that’s not a tabloid) reported on this?

The original street interviews were conducted and filmed by The Campaign for Antisemitism. News outlets are simply reporting what is in the video.

1dayatatime · 10/11/2023 09:59

@ScribblingPixie
@Reallifelurker

Reallifelurker
Would it make any difference to your views or beliefs if the source was LBC rather than the Daily Mail

Er..no. Have anyone like the BBC or a paper (that’s not a tabloid) reported on this?

The original street interviews were conducted and filmed by The Campaign for Antisemitism. News outlets are simply reporting what is in the video.

++++

This simply proves my point that there is no rational debate or logic on this topic on both sides. It is simply one of convictions or entrenched beliefs that dismiss any counter facts or evidence as fake.

ChalkWitch · 10/11/2023 10:10

Regarding the civilian supporters of Hamas in Gaza, I wonder how many really do support them or just toe the line publicly,so to speak, given Hamas don’t seem that reasonable.

I can’t imagine they would have much time for dissenters, maybe they ‘support’ them out of fear? I mean they have demonstrated they have no consideration for their own civilians. If you disagreed with Hamas, you might keep that quiet so you don’t get thrown off a building.

Thats not to say that there is no civilian support, I just think it would be very brave (foolhardy?) of a civilian in Gaza to denounce them. And maybe very dangerous.

beachcitygirl · 10/11/2023 10:25

I've asked this question before (typically no reply )

But can anyone on here truthfully say that if they lived in Gaza with their children and a Hamas operative with a machine gun came in their home &'threatened their kids would they do anything other than what they are told.?

Anyone?

Given what we all know Hamas capable of. ?
💯 the hostages are doing what they are told. As they should. The goal is survival as an ordinary person

Hamas are a murdering vile terrorist group.

We would all do as we are told in those circumstances.

I don't believe that = support

I don't believe civilians support Hamas other than out of self- preservation and abject fear as would we all.

ChalkWitch · 10/11/2023 10:29

Well exactly. It just emphasises the need to eradicate Hamas. The Palestinians and Israelis deserve better than being terrorised by a death cult.

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 11:05

This simply proves my point that there is no rational debate or logic on this topic on both sides. It is simply one of convictions or entrenched beliefs that dismiss any counter facts or evidence as fake

I didn’t mean to imply they’re fake just that they are possibly not representative of the general population. You’d have to be living under a rock to not know what started the current Israel-Hamas war.

My issue with outlets like LBC and The Fail are that they tends to be a bit “gossipy” shall we say.

MableT · 10/11/2023 11:42

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 09:36

Would it make any difference to your views or beliefs if the source was LBC rather than the Daily Mail

Er..no. Have anyone like the BBC or a paper (that’s not a tabloid) reported on this?

There are two students interviewed from the DM report. Guess that's just another fake video, given there's apparently lots of those. Fake rape, lies, and hysteria, all surrounding 7th October.

HaveALaff · 10/11/2023 11:44

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Israel supported Hamas to divide the government in Gaza. They provided Hamas with permits for Gazan citizens so they could work. What was their motive behind this move? To have an excuse to destroy Gazans?

Xenia · 10/11/2023 11:55

You will find silly people on all kinds of marches who don't know what the real issues are and people there for all kinds of reasons. on the comment last night that fake posters come on at a certain time and are not proper accounts - if that were addressed to me - I posted at 10pm ish - that is not so. I am not a bot. I genuinely support Israel in this.

On the people in the Gaza strip, half of them are under 18. Either the parents die very young or they have a lot of children - some of the youngest population on earth and sadly some will be like the cubs of the Caliphate in Isis - almost weaned on to attacking Israel from a young age. These are always complex situations. There is no doubt however as to what Hamas did when it invaded Israel and Hamas would have known exactly th elikely results and probably was aiming to stop rapprochement between Israel and Saudi

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 11:57

There are two students interviewed from the DM report. Guess that's just another fake video, given there's apparently lots of those. Fake rape, lies, and hysteria, all surrounding 7th October.

I never said it was fake just that it seem’s a bit odd to suggest that protesters not knowing October 7th happened is the norm.

MableT · 10/11/2023 12:01

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 11:57

There are two students interviewed from the DM report. Guess that's just another fake video, given there's apparently lots of those. Fake rape, lies, and hysteria, all surrounding 7th October.

I never said it was fake just that it seem’s a bit odd to suggest that protesters not knowing October 7th happened is the norm.

Edited

You don't think some students are naive?

25milesfromhome · 10/11/2023 12:06

beachcitygirl · 10/11/2023 10:25

I've asked this question before (typically no reply )

But can anyone on here truthfully say that if they lived in Gaza with their children and a Hamas operative with a machine gun came in their home &'threatened their kids would they do anything other than what they are told.?

Anyone?

Given what we all know Hamas capable of. ?
💯 the hostages are doing what they are told. As they should. The goal is survival as an ordinary person

Hamas are a murdering vile terrorist group.

We would all do as we are told in those circumstances.

I don't believe that = support

I don't believe civilians support Hamas other than out of self- preservation and abject fear as would we all.

No, I don’t believe co-operation under threat equals support. There have been demonstrations against Hamas in the past but any dissent is quickly and forcibly crushed. Gazans are in an impossible position and they deserve so much better.
The Center for Peace Communications “Whispered in Gaza” project is a series of testimonies from Gazans talking about their lives under Hamas, and what Palestine means to them. I found it incredibly moving and illuminating.

Parkingt111 · 10/11/2023 12:11

25milesfromhome · 10/11/2023 12:06

No, I don’t believe co-operation under threat equals support. There have been demonstrations against Hamas in the past but any dissent is quickly and forcibly crushed. Gazans are in an impossible position and they deserve so much better.
The Center for Peace Communications “Whispered in Gaza” project is a series of testimonies from Gazans talking about their lives under Hamas, and what Palestine means to them. I found it incredibly moving and illuminating.

Agreed
I saw a video where a woman was crying out and swearing at Hamas after a strike and she was quickly shushed
Honestly I think maybe Hamas did have some support prior to the attack and maybe still do
But however much that may be must have diminished very rapidly at this stage in the war
Or on the other hand it could have increased as Hamas have always said Israel is our enemy and people who are in the midst of the war surrounded by the bodies of their loved ones may find it difficult to see otherwise
Either way it's incredibly sad

Jupitersstorm · 10/11/2023 12:20

God bless Suella Braverman - a brave and wonderful woman.

And yes I know many posters on here will leap onto my words and denigrate and scoff me and her.

This article from Stephen Pollard explains why very eloquently.

"Braverman's critics have one big problem... She's absolutely right.
There is a telling irony in the fact that more anger has been directed at Suella Braverman for condemning police handling of the pro-Palestine marches than at the marches themselves.
In an article for The Times yesterday, the Home Secretary criticised the police for 'playing favourites' with protest groups.
She highlighted the 'double standard' exhibited by their light-touch handling of marches in support of supposedly progressive causes, such as those backing Gaza over the past four Saturdays, and the stern response to more Right-wing protests, such as anti-lockdown demos.
She again referred to the pro-Palestine rallies as 'hate marches' and said they were being used by Islamic extremists as an attempt to dominate the streets of London.
Cue a meltdown from pretty much the entire law enforcement establishment. Mrs Braverman 'crossed the line', according to Sir Tom Winsor, the former chief inspector of constabulary. Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, described what she said as 'irresponsible', adding: 'It stokes divisions, it is in danger of dividing communities, it reinforces stereotypes.'
His words were echoed by a host of retired police chiefs, Lefty lawyers and even some Tory MPs. There's just one problem with all this opprobrium. Mrs Braverman is right.
The sheer range of the approaches the Met takes to handling different marches is striking. There is footage of police fist-bumping people during the recent demonstrations in much the same way that some took the knee during the Black Lives Matter protests.
Contrast this with the riot shields and strong-arm tactics that they use at other times.
Suella Braverman has been a rare voice of sanity when it comes to tackling the Gaza marches. Yes, many people turn up because of the appalling loss of life in Gaza, especially the deaths of thousands of children, but that doesn't mean they can't be characterised as 'hate marches' in the sense they are being exploited by Islamists.
You have to be wilfully blind not to see this – which is precisely the problem with the Met's handling of the marches.
Remember that the first one took place on October 14, before Israel had lifted a finger against Hamas. That march was, sickeningly, prompted by the massacre of 1,400 Jews by Hamas. It was not about a ceasefire, since – at that point – Israel was yet to begin its military operation in Gaza.
The police stood and watched as the crowd chanted 'From the river to the sea', a call for the elimination of Israel and Jews, which – as Mrs Braverman put it a few days later – 'remains a staple of anti-Semitic discourse'. There were, as there have been on every one of the four marches, repeated calls for 'jihad', which – for most of us – means 'holy war'. Here we get to the gist of why Mrs Braverman is right. Every week, the police have issued statements in advance saying how tough they are going to be on hate speech and every week they have shown themselves to be paper tigers.
Over the past four Saturdays, the streets – and some train stations – have been taken over by people chanting: 'There is only one solution, intifada revolution.'
One speaker said that the October 7 massacre showed 'what the resistance can do when they take the fight and their self determination in their own hands'.
In the eyes of the Met, this appears to be entirely acceptable behaviour. Indeed, thanks to the Met's social media account, we have had an insight into the mindset of the police.
In response to videos of the calls for jihad, the Met posted: 'The word has a number of meanings but we know the public will most commonly associate it with terrorism.'
Well, yes. But it continued: 'Specialist officers have assessed the video and have not identified any offences arising.'
The Met appears to believe that the crowds chanting 'jihad' are in fact engaging in a deeply contemplative internal theological struggle – one of the word jihad's 'number of meanings' – whereas anyone who isn't themselves calling for jihad realises that on the marches it is, as the Met's own tweet posits, a chant for terror.
I have a question for those people who say they have marched for no reason other than their concern over the appalling body count in Palestinian territory.
Let's say they had been on another march, on a different issue, and they realised that marching alongside them were neo-Nazis calling for the murder of black people.
Would they have come back the following week to march with them again? And again? And again? Because that is just what many have done – if you replace 'black people' with 'Jews'. For four weeks the police have been worse than useless – worse, because by doing nothing when confronted by hate crimes, they embolden others.
The march tomorrow threatens to be the most high risk march yet. Instead of pillorying Mrs Braverman for daring to speak out in advance, she should be praised for refusing to accept the Met's excuses and obstinacy."

Iwantcakeeveryday · 10/11/2023 12:29

Remember that the first one took place on October 14, before Israel had lifted a finger against Hamas. That march was, sickeningly, prompted by the massacre of 1,400 Jews by Hamas. It was not about a ceasefire, since – at that point – Israel was yet to begin its military operation in Gaza.

This is sad to read, surely everyone can agree that was wrong?

Parkingt111 · 10/11/2023 12:31

I should add that in regards to the planning of the attack do I think civilians knew? I very much doubt that simply because Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world and its just not a plausible explanation that civilians would have known and Israel didn't

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 12:32

You don't think some students are naive

I think the events of October 7 would be hard to miss.

All you have to do is watch/listen to the news, read a paper, be in social media.

I suppose some people really could be that out of touch (but are those people students? really? wouldn’t have happened in my day)and just wandered along to a march because why not? You get all sorts.

Not sure it’s news worthy though. Most people do know the terrorist attack happened.

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 12:35

God bless Suella Braverman - a brave and wonderful woman

Well there goes your credibility

WarmWinterSun · 10/11/2023 12:40

Something I find difficult to reconcile is that Pro Palestinian supporters organised
their first rally in London shortly after 7 October and before Israel responded militarily. I found that very upsetting as many were just coming to terms with the barbarity of the Hamas attack and the mass kidnappings. I witnessed in person during my commute what seemed to be celebrations in London by Palestinian supporters, I was upset by this, and this was very different to a call for peace. That response made me concerned about the intentions behind the rallies and marches. I do accept that many people have now joined those marches because they are distressed by the death in Gaza and they want to march for peace. I can understand that. I just don’t understand the initial response in the days immediately following the 7 October attack.

Jupitersstorm · 10/11/2023 12:46

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 12:35

God bless Suella Braverman - a brave and wonderful woman

Well there goes your credibility

But I really do think she is brave - and I'm not looking for credibility - it's just what I think. My opinion as she is saying things many people think and do not dare to say and she is putting her job on the line for saying what she really feels. That is brave. I admire it.

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 12:53

But I really do think she is brave - and I'm not looking for credibility - it's just what I think. My opinion as she is saying things many people think and do not dare to say and she is putting her job on the line for saying what she really feels. That is brave. I admire it

Nah, never mind the protests what about her comments that homeless people should not be allowed to sleep in tents because being homeless is a lifestyle choice. She’s a numpty.

Jupitersstorm · 10/11/2023 12:57

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 12:53

But I really do think she is brave - and I'm not looking for credibility - it's just what I think. My opinion as she is saying things many people think and do not dare to say and she is putting her job on the line for saying what she really feels. That is brave. I admire it

Nah, never mind the protests what about her comments that homeless people should not be allowed to sleep in tents because being homeless is a lifestyle choice. She’s a numpty.

I agree that is a whole other issue - however this is a thread about the protests and her remarks are about the protests. Just because she has made previous comments that are not necessarily the right thing to say doesn't mean she cannot be right on this.

I happen to think she is.

People don't call you a numpty if you don't believe anything the Daily Mail right as you do not agree with its political ideology. Let's try and keep our comments polite e.g. I think she was wrong to say X about people sleeping in tents and this has coloured my views of her full stop and now I think everything that comes out of her mouth is wrong.

Reallifelurker · 10/11/2023 13:00

Lol, I could have called her worse.

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