What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

[Flapjacker48]

It won't change UK government policy. It won't result in a ceasefire in Gaza. It won't magically resolve the situation in Palestine.

Same as all the other big marches - War in Iraq etc. Changed nothing.

Yes, nothing says “good at defending ourselves” like apartheid and mass ethnic cleansing. You got me there.

If we were living a few centuries ago nobody would really question why the country that was attacked would want to expand its borders and limit the ability of the group that posed a threat to carry out attacks. I don't like how the hardliners in Israel behave - but I understand the basic human survival instinct that underlies it.

Unfortunately, the moderates within Israel who want to reach a political settlement in which Palestinians are treated humanely have been left with egg on their faces by the nature and scale of the latest Hamas attack. It's difficult to see how a political settlement can be reached at this point.

"our government is complicit in the deaths of thousands of civilians..."

IMO, The British Government is merely asserting that Israel is 100% right to defend itself itself against terrorism and ensure that the terrorist factions are eradicated. A humanitarian pause would be great but Hamas does not want to release the hostages. Israel will agree to the pause if this happens.

The British Government, IMO, is upholding the right of a country under constant terrorist attack and threats to defend itself.

IMO, The Gazan Government is complicit in civilian deaths by:
1.) Using their citizens as human shields
2.) Promoting the destruction of Israel to every child and adult
3.) Carrying out the worst terrorist attack of the 21st Century
4.) Saying they will do it again and again
5.) Using ambulances to carry weapons and terrorists
6.) Terrorists using Gazan hospitals as command headquarters

I am expecting this well rehearsed response: " Well here is my evidence for X, they are bombing people escaping to the South, bombing hospitals, refugee camps, etc, etc." The Israeli military, IMO is doing all that it can to give notice to evacuate. However, I know, that in your opinon, the people cannot escape either.

That is not my opinion.

What should the Gazan Government do?

Hand back the hostages and apologise.

All just my opinions, politely expressed.

Cue the vitriol.

Wow, disgusting, the hatred is awful to see. Just a couple of days after the most heinous attack by terrorist group Hamas. Emboldened and cheering on. So sad.

Jupitersstorm wrote
"A humanitarian pause would be great but Hamas does not want to release the hostages. Israel will agree to the pause if this happens."

Which is simply not true.
What Netanyahu said on Nov 5th was,
"There will be no ceasefire without the return of the hostages."

Which is something very different to what you wrote.

I don’t think that the language of oppressor and oppressed is right here, which is my whole point about things not fitting into neat boxes.

But if you want to consider Israel from a different perspective to ‘goodies v baddies’, Israel was invaded by five countries immediately as it was created. There are many people who want to see Israel wiped off the map and are actively working to achieve that aim. Hamas leaders have said they don’t think Israel has the right to exist. This is an existential threat facing Israel that they constantly have to guard against. Israeli houses have safe rooms which are reinforced to protect against rockets and attacks. Some Israeli families were murdered in those safe rooms on October 7th. The threat is real.

Anti-semitism is a worldwide issue that has affected the Jewish people for millennia. It’s not Jews making a fuss about nothing. Jews have been expelled from countries, hounded out, left nowhere to go, scapegoated for political problems and so on for centuries. England itself expelled all Jews from 1290 to 1656. And of course the Holocaust was the ‘Final Solution to the Jewish Problem’. Not just expelling them as had been done so many times, but exterminating them.

Seeing antisemitism on the rise again after people said ‘never again’ must be both horrifying and worrying for Jewish people. What will be the end result this time? Telling them not to be silly or it’s just some banners or it’s a minority or it’s not really antisemitism is patronisingly seeking to invalidate genuine fears based on historical experience.

And Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. Antisemitism is given a focus there. Anyone who wants to pretend that general attitude to Israel is purely in response to its actions (which I emphatically do not condone) and nothing at all to do with antisemitism is being hopelessly naive. People trying to explain why Israel is getting all the attention while other, worse atrocities are currently ongoing should really factor antisemitism into the argument otherwise they are just kidding themselves. From experience you only need to scratch the surface of criticism of Israel online to easily find Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories and more overt Jew-hatred.

Put simply, Judaism is a world minority religion, and Jews are a world minority ethnically. The fact that they've managed to gain/regain a small stretch of land in Middle East, and have the knowledge, wealth and international support to be able to defend that stretch of land, doesn't alter the global threat that they've face for the past 2 thousand years and continue to face.

When it comes to any other group the Left is at pains to prioritise ‘lived experience’, would never presume how to tell eg a Black person if what they’re experiencing is racism. Subjectivity and identify-focussed politics is prioritised

But when it comes to Jewish people - well, we’re just overreacting and being too sensitive. When we say that aspects of the demonstrations and the pro-Palestinian movement make us uneasy, and are contributing to a hostile and threatening environment for Jews, we’re dismissed. And lectured by some non Jew on how it’s not really anti semitic because of x, y and z

Precisely, @UpperLowerMiddleClass - and so far another 30-odd posts and not one who'll attempt to explain why Jewish people stand practically alone in being dismissed on the subject

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said this morning that a ceasefire would be dependant on hostages being released or something similar this morning. They are trying to negotiate but want hostages released.

@noblegiraffe I completely agree with you. I think some of the pro Palestinian demonstrators need to take a step back and consider why Israel, including its political landscape and the IDF, look like they do.

The country has faced real, existential threat since it was established. Of course it’s going to have a large scale well-funded army, compulsory military service etc. It’s very easy to sit in the UK and see the IDF as aggressive and inhumane- and yes what it happening in Gaza is inhumane. Bur you need to see it in context. Simply characterising Israel and Israelis as horrible bad people is not going to help anyone.

The tragedy of the whole conflict is that both sides are correct - both Israelis and Palestinians should be at liberty to live freely where they want to live. That’s not the issue. The issue is how this can ever be made reality.

I stated very clearly: "All just my opinions, politely expressed."

It is my opinion that the Israeli government will agree to a temporary ceasefire if they are released. I believe that they will.

However, I believe that they will not agree to a permanent ceasefire until their mission objectives are carried out: to eradicate the present terrorist threat. Something that every other country in the world would do if it was sitting on their doorstep.

Much of the world sat by (albeit some wonderful people and activists) and let European Jewry be destroyed. Do you really think the Israeli Govt will sit back again and let this happen again?

I don't think so, somehow.

And they shouldn't.

What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

A ceasefire would do for a start, followed by negotiation whose aims are a more peaceful coexistance between Palestinians and Israelis.

However Israel doesn't want a ceasefire.

The UK is an ally of Israel and because of commercial and strategic considerations, the UK does not want to seriously upset its relationship with that country. The simple fact is that Israel is of far more use to the UK than Palestine.
As a consequence of this, marches are very unlikely to change the UK's foreign policy.

It's basically Realpolitik. It's very sad, but practical considerations push moral considerations into the background.

Thank you for taking the time out to write a polite and meaningful post which opens up alot of what is being discussed on these threads

I have stated before that I do believe thar as any other country Israel has a right to defend itself and anyone who thinks that Hamas didn't expect a response is possibly quite delusional

My grievance is fully on the way Israel is conducting this
I did write some points in another thread in how I believe more could have been done to minimise civilian casualties

If you think I am pro Hamas then that would be an incorrect assumption.

I don't agree with many of your points which I feel I have repeated many times
I also don't hold the same standards for democracies and terrorists and don't have high expectations for terrorists either to do the 'right' thing
I firmly believe that in its bid for revenge Israel is collectively punishing the people of Gaza

BTW I keep seeing people justifying Israel bombing hospitals
The head of many hospitals have categorically denied this and have even invited the UN to come and check

Lastly if you feel that I have shown you or any other poster uncaused vitriol then do point out where and I will be happy to go back and apologise

If people attending the marches are really there because you are concerned about the deaths of innocent civilians, you are not making that clear.

Because what I have seen of the marches in the press and social media looks like Islamist anti Jewish hatred.
Why would anyone who didn't hate Israelis be offended by posters of kidnapped children?
Why are there no signs expressing distress at the atrocity of October 7th, and solidarity with the families of the innocent civilians killed?
Why no signs criticising Hamas, who started this war?
What does 'from the river to the sea' mean, if it's not a call for the genocide of Jews in Israel?

Well said.

I think the problem is that two things are true at the same time:

1. Hamas are an extreme terrorist organisation who do not believe that the Israelis have any land rights in the area at all, and whose religious ideology is antisemitic. It is therefore not realistic to think that Israel can negotiate with them.
2. The 'the only way we will ever be safe is to flatten Gaza' party are in charge in Israel, and criticism of this approach is valid, given that Palestinians do have a right to a homeland (or just to be alive!) as well.

Thank you for saying this, and so well. I just get so disheartened at so many people failing to consider this perspective.

It’s unlikely ‘a lot’ of people on the protests are Jewish given that Jewish people make up 0.5% of the population, 270k in the Uk and the vast majority of those I would suspect are unlikely to be marching and more likely to support vigils for the hostages still held by Hamas

Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. Antisemitism is given a focus there. Anyone who wants to pretend that general attitude to Israel is purelyin response to its actions (which I emphatically do not condone) and nothing at all to do with antisemitism is being hopelessly naive.

Or worse than naive, frankly.
Even among 'regular' people, I think a lot of people are much more comfortable with the idea of stoic, suffering Jewish people who need to be rescued than they are with tough, resilient Jewish people who win wars waged against them.

Parkingt111 wrote:
I also don't hold the same standards for democracies and terrorists and don't have high expectations for terrorists either to do the 'right' thing
I firmly believe that in its bid for revenge Israel is collectively punishing the people of Gaza

I admit until recently I knew very little about the politics, but my understanding is that Hamas are the democratically elected government of Gaza, and they organised the attack of October 7th. So both 'sides' should be expected to do the 'right' thing.

Why do you think Israel's actions are intended to 'punish' the people of Gaza, rather than an attempt to destroy Hamas in order to protect Israelis from future attacks?

Aside from the actions of Israel (which many humanatarian and other groups agree is happening) there have been many members of the Israeli government who have said words to that affect after the war
I can post them here if you would like me to

You're right you don't know.

There hasn't been a democratic election in Palestine since 2006.

Hamas is a terrorist authoritarian regime that has completely suppressed democracy.

There hasn't been a democratic election in Palestine since 2006.

Hamas objectives were known then though. they have always been clear they intend to rid the world of jews, and yet they were elected.

@Didoreththeterf if you think I am making things up then you should have a look at the Jewish Voice For Peace social media
They have done a incredible job at highlighting and bringing to the fore front the hypocrisy, and double standards of the Israeli government

Yes and I'm pretty sure Hamas being a terrorist group held fair elections

The far right government also by no means hid their views on the Palestinians and the bid to increase illegal settlements in the west bank amongst many other terrible views yet Netanyahu still formed a coalition government with them