What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

[Flapjacker48]

It won't change UK government policy. It won't result in a ceasefire in Gaza. It won't magically resolve the situation in Palestine.

Same as all the other big marches - War in Iraq etc. Changed nothing.

What is happening in the Middle East is horrendous, barbaric and messy. It doesn't fit into neat boxes, and certainly will not be solved by facile calls for one side to just give up

So the posters who argue that Hamas could always just down their arms, let the hostages go and play nice are wasting their breath then? I’ll let you tell them that if you don’t mind.

This is quite an interesting article

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-israel

"A poster asking for evidence from a decent source about one of the most well-publicised atrocities apparently unaware that Hamas filmed and published the torture and murder themselves."

I honestly think this was a bad faith poster who did it to be purposely controversial, as did MN who deleted it several times citing this reason.

As they started the same thread and comment several times despite the posts being previously deleted.

And I would not put it past govt bots on either side of the conflict to spam sites with such things in bad faith so they can stir the pot and claim the other side said XXX.

NB I am NOT saying antisemitism does not exist nor that many of the examples cited are not genuine.

But I think with certain examples, like the one above, we have to think carefully why people would post such things and in whose interest it is to stir the pot.

"The attack on Israel took place in a phase of rapprochement between several Muslim states and Israel. There are the Abraham Accords between Israel and Muslim countries of the region. Jordan and Israel are working together on a major drinking water project. Saudi Arabia was on the way to normalizing its relations with Israel.
But peaceful coexistence of Israel and its neighbours, of Jews and Muslims, and the prospect of a two-state solution — are not what Hamas and its supporters, especially the Iranian government, want. They want to destroy it."
This is from the German vice chancellor Robert Habeck's speech on the situation - talking about who benefits from this situation: Iran, Russia, terrorist groups including the far-right. Really good and worth watching with subtitles - it's all over the internet and easily found.

Completely agree - this is what most measured commentators said at the beginning and its rather got lost in all the shouting.

This is insightful

And sad that what was being achieved led to the attack on October 7th

And now destabilised again

They read the news and get upset

That emotion needs to go somewhere so they march about in groups shouting and feel like they’ve done something

Then they pat themselves on the back and go home

Do they donate to war child charities or lobby their MP to change policy? Probably not.

Anyone else think it was probably Putin who gave the Hamas the weapons and training they needed? Knocked Ukraine right off the front pages, hasn’t it.

I think they are very likely to donate to children's charities (I have twice so far this conflict) and write to their MP (again yes I have).

what do you personally do to protest against war crimes and atrocities you don't like?

Does the patronising and wild assumptions make you feel better?
Did you think you would get a pat on the back by the posters who have the same view as you?
By all means disagree but some of the posts on here totally infantilising the millions who have marched around the globe is just something else

Like all marches, I'm guessing one of the aims is to show how much support they have. In a democracy, it's difficult for governments to completely ignore thousands of people turning out to make their voices heard.

Israel have been in an impossible position for decades trying to deal with an enemy that resents their very existence, and is prepared to use any means to undermine their security. So I've never felt able to support any kind of 'free Palestine' movement. However, the current Israeli government is only moderate if you compare it to Hamas - which isn't saying much! So, the UK and US are also now in a difficult position as they've had to back a government that isn't ideally the one they would have liked to be making decisions about how to respond to the Hamas threat.

Par for the course where antisemitism's concerned though, as we see with thousands of posts on the conflict and not a single one answering why jewish people stand alone in apparently having to be instructed in what racism actually is

Thus is the crux of my uneasiness. I’m broadly left wing, and Jewish. When it comes to any other group the Left is at pains to prioritise ‘lived experience’, would never presume how to tell eg a Black person if what they’re experiencing is racism. Subjectivity and identify-focussed politics is prioritised.

But when it comes to Jewish people - well, we’re just overreacting and being too sensitive. When we say that aspects of the demonstrations and the pro-Palestinian movement make us uneasy, and are contributing to a hostile and threatening environment for Jews, we’re dismissed. And lectured by some non Jew on how it’s not really anti semitic because of x, y and z.

tell Me you don’t know anything about the conflict without telling me you don’t know anything about the conflict

Well said noble

This conflict goes back well over 100 years, and has to be understood as such.

Hamas is led by barbaric professional warlords with no interest in peace between Israel and the wider Arab region; but likewise Netanyahu and his government don’t see a successful peace process between Israel and Palestine in their interest either.

But there is no excusing Israel for what it is going; and I will never, ever forgive our government for not saying so.

Meanwhile the arms industry - and therefore national treasuries / cronies - is making a fortune; Elon Musk is finally going to turn a profit from the social media frenzy….. while the Zionist Conservative / Labour Friends of Israel are demanding their money’s worth now for all their donations and cushy fact-finding trips.

I think if I didn't already know, the last few weeks have taught me how much people don't understand about this conflict and about the people involved and the history of the region. It has also shown me most people have simplistic views of conflict and tend to always favour a side. What I didn't realise is how cruel ordinary people can be about the innocent people on the side they don't support. I think this is true for a lot of conflict, but more so for this one because it involves Jews. I wish people would understand that our contributions online and in marches, is adding to the problem and causing more pain and struggle for the people we are meant to be caring about.

https://twitter.com/BellaWallerstei/status/1721073328939540639

"The attack on Israel took place in a phase of rapprochement between several Muslim states and Israel. There are the Abraham Accords between Israel and Muslim countries of the region. Jordan and Israel are working together on a major drinking water project. Saudi Arabia was on the way to normalizing its relations with Israel.
But peaceful coexistence of Israel and its neighbours, of Jews and Muslims, and the prospect of a two-state solution — are not what Hamas and its supporters, especially the Iranian government, want. They want to destroy it.".

That’s probably all true but why does it mean people can’t be critical of Israel’s actions?

I mean several people have said that a lot of people on the protests are actually Jewish. Have they been told they’re pro-Hamas?

I haven't read every comment, but I don't think anyone has said every single person on the marches are pro Hamas or anti semitic. However, those sorts of people are present and are emboldened by the marches, even if they're well meaning. The fact the marches are focussed on the suffering of one side of the conflict is something that encourages hate for the other side.

Israel have been in an impossible position for decades trying to deal with an enemy that resents their very existence

If you had your land taken, was forced out of your home that you had been living in for decades, were massacred during the Nakba with hundreds of thousands of you being expelled from your homeland, and then treated by the “settlers” as subhuman, and not even allowed to call yourself “Palestinian”, you may feel somewhat resentful, yes.

That’s without even mentioning the occupation of land, air and sea, the occupation of water and the apartheid that Israel is subjecting the Palestinians to, and the plethora of other human rights violations.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/17/how-israel-uses-water-to-control-west-bank-palestine

Some marches (why in quotes?) do change things. Poll tax good example.
If enough people are protesting, a Govt. with only a year’s tenure left have to take notice at some point.
Braverman’s branding of the protests as “hate” marches is disgusting.

I've heard this argument over and over again. I'm not interested in your one-sided propaganda. The state of Israel has been under attack by people who want to wipe it out from the beginning. The fact that they've turned out to be good at defending themselves and have ended up in a stronger position every time they're attacked doesn't make them the aggressor.

good point on the poll tax march. I was there on the day. Of course like today with the gaza ceasefire marches some folks/media (and the government and its pathetic home sec waddington) tried to paint the protesters as mad vandals - totally untrue - was a very broad range of folks and was mostly very peaceful. Starmer is of course coming under pressure so may conceivably change something. It might dawn on him that a lot of folks out there - including his party's own councillors - don't accept his line/think like him.

Interesting Guardian article on this topic:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/06/pro-palestine-rallies-hate-marches-solidarity-helplessness-frustration

Netanyahu recently announced his economic plans for Gaza once they’ve flattened it and killed all the Palestinians/driven them into the desert:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/

Netanyahu is interested in Gaza because of its oil and gas reserves:

https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves

Here an the article on the document that was found that shows Israel’s plans for another Nakba (making Gaza uninhabitable so that they have to flee to the Sinai Desert in Egypt):

Israel has downplayed the significance of a leaked government paper proposing the transfer of more than 2 million Gazans to Egypt, fuelling Palestinian fears of a second “Nakba”.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba