What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

[Flapjacker48]

It won't change UK government policy. It won't result in a ceasefire in Gaza. It won't magically resolve the situation in Palestine.

Same as all the other big marches - War in Iraq etc. Changed nothing.

Not sure about this tbh. Even if the marchers are misguided in any way who is exploiting them?

I presume the reference is to stuff like this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/iran-backed-groups-britain-israel-hamas-gaza-war-tb6dxl0ml

From Wikipedia: A useful idiot is a person perceived as propagandizing for a cause—particularly a bad cause originating from a devious, ruthless source—without fully comprehending the cause's goals, and who is cynically being used by the cause's leaders.

So in this situation a well meaning leftie who supports who they perceive as the underdog, so the Palestinians. And yes demonstrating about the horrific conditions Gazan civilians are facing is obviously understandable.

But I think some of these well meaning leftie demonstrators don’t fully comprehend how what they’re doing contributes towards legitimising anti Semitism, and emboldens those who are anti Semites.

It's terrifying Parking. More and more bombs. I watched a girl Bisan on Instagram earlier today crying because she is starving and scared and there is no food and only sea water to drink. Everyone is already so weakened and traumatised. I don't know how much more they can take but there is no way out from it.

I saw too
She was one of the first who I saw reporting on the bombing of the ambulance outside Al shifa hospital and was traumatised as she said she had been standing at the place of the strike not long ago
I try not to share too much on here about the journalists who are still alive by name as they are all being killed off one by one.
One of the first things I do when I wake up is check if the ones I am following have made it through the night

Russia certainly benefits from the eye of the western world being turned from Ukraine to the Middle East. Support for Ukraine in the US was already waning.

And they bloody love stoking division between people and governments. Look at their hand in Brexit. I bet they're all over this online.

It broke my heart seeing her crying over food. She's nit much older than my eldest but their lives couldn't be more different all because of where they happened to be born.

So in this situation a well meaning leftie who supports who they perceive as the underdog, so the Palestinians. And yes demonstrating about the horrific conditions Gazan civilians are facing is obviously understandable.

But I think some of these well meaning leftie demonstrators don’t fully comprehend how what they’re doing contributes towards legitimising anti Semitism, and emboldens those who are anti Semites.

Well firstly I don’t know that they are legitimising antisemitism because l would I would argue they are not motivated by antisemitism although it looks like a bunch of antisemites have been tagging along so maybe saying it emboldens them is fair.

However the phrase seems to refer to people who are manipulated by a cause (such as communism by the looks of things) and that is not what’s happening. Hamas is not pulling their strings.

I presume the reference is to stuff like this

I can’t read that. It’s behind a paywall.

From the title it looks more like a case of agent provacateur to me.

Sorry for not being able to read all the posts and arguments. The length of this discussion exactly highlights the controversial nature of the conflicts between Israel and Palestine (which I anticipate on the other hand, some readers may find it offensive to describe this matter as "controversial").

It is important to be realistic and acknowledge that civilian protests held in a different country are unlikely to stop a war or conflict that has a long and complicated history.

While I am anti-war of all sorts, it is concerning to see the protests getting violent and antisemitic. It is not acceptable to bully anyone who eat McDonald's, chant slogans in a packed tube, occupy stations so that people cannot travel, or to resort to violence, vandalism, and firing fireworks at the police.

Regardless of the cause, these actions do not align with British values. We should all respect each other’s beliefs, agree to disagree and not to promote division or unrest.

But I think some of these well meaning leftie demonstrators don’t fully comprehend how what they’re doing contributes towards legitimising anti Semitism, and emboldens those who are anti Semites.

I can understand this concern to a degree.
But I protested and that's not what I saw.
I saw a lot of concerned, empathetic people - students, Muslim and white families with children.
It was very peaceful, without any signs of antisemitism (I don't agree that Palestinian flag is antisemitic).

I sympathise with Jewish people and understand the concern that protests may embolden those who are antisemites (just like Brexit emboldened racists). But there are thousands of innocent children being killed/ going through an unimaginable hell.

Are they worse and not worthy of your concern because of their ethnicity?

Israeli-British Oxford University Professor, Avi Shlaim, speaking at @ICJPalestine on October 30th 2023:

"Anti-Semitism is a very ugly thing and can never be justified. Most of the anti-Zionist statements that I've come across are reasonable, evidence-based and legitimate. The problem is, Israel and it's friends conflate the two, so to claim that any criticism of Israel and it's policies are ant-Semitic."

"The Secretary General of the UN made a very humane statement about the need for ceasefire and to protect civilians. And the Israeli representative immediately accusing him of anti-semitism.”

Oh come on, are you serious? No one needs Iran to “stir up tensions” - the Israeli government’s brutal regime has done that all by itself!

It is an apartheid state - UN report:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

It locks up and tortures children without fair trial:

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--

It forcibly pulls Palestinians out of their homes, sometimes bulldozing them, sometimes just moving in a “settler” Dave from New York, who apparently has more of a right to that home than the Palestinians:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

These settlers are then violent and abusive towards the Palestinians. If Palestinians retaliate they get shot. Sometimes even if they don’t retaliate, they still get shot. 130 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since 7 October.

I could list so much more.

Recent events:

Israel are targeting hospitals, refugee camps, ambulances.

1 child or baby is killed by Israel every 10 minutes according to Save the Children.

4,000 Palestinian babies and kids dead in Gaza since 7 October.

1,000 kids trapped under rubble in Gaza and slowly dying.

No clean water. No food. No anaesthetic for kids who have lost limbs. No power. No way to communicate with anyone as comms have been cut.

Hamas got into power in 2005 (thanks to Israel, by the way: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) but the dehumanisation, mass ethnic cleansing of the stateless Palestinians has been decades-long.

More and more people are becoming aware of what our government supports, and the profit to be made at the destruction of the Palestinians.

We will continue to protest.

Oh and not to mention the thousands of women, kids and babies trapped in the “north” of Gaza (the top two thirds of Gaza) who are in a horrific war zone and have also received zero aid, because Israel is only allowing a tiny trickle of aid into the south.

Children in the north of Gaza are drinking sea water. No bread for 4 days now.

Israel is bombing solar panels, schools, mosques, churches and even a water tank:
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-airstrike-hits-gaza-water-reservoir-supplying-rafah-neighborhoods/3043167

It is hell on Earth and people have the cheek to come on here to tell us to not protest, despite our government giving two thumbs up to the Israeli government.

We will continue to show our disgust that our taxes are supporting this. Doing anything else makes me feel complicit.

OneHurtSpaggettio
Yes , Thank you

The reality is that all outside of this region are privileged to avoid\ belittle\ switch off what's happening in Palestine\ israel. Some choose not to, and are bearing witness to war crimes\ genocide etc. Connecting with human suffering. Some can simply not go to a protest and get irritated or angry if their day-to-day plan is disrupted. Others can feel intimated and threatened, eg, this is not British or antisemitic etc. Palestinians do not have this privilege, so we protest instead.

The right (and privilege) to protest needs to be protected, not only by the police, but by other prostestors, ready to call out antisemitism I personally have been ready to and I believe many would have but if the Palestinian flag itself is seen as threatening then that's not something I (or others protesting) should be responsible for. It's like someone finding my darker complexion tbreatening, or deems my outfit 'not British' enough. That is not my responsibility to fix. Go check youself.

There's a reason these marches are banned in western Europe

And what reason is that?

It might help Jews currently too scared to go anywhere near their cities on a Saturday realise that this is just about criticism of the Israeli government, rather than anything more sinister ...

I'd like to think so, except that "sinister" accurately describes too much of what we've been seeing on the marches - and people claiming they've personally "not seen anything like that" seems right up there with denying racism exists just because someone's not experienced it themselves

Par for the course where antisemitism's concerned though, as we see with thousands of posts on the conflict and not a single one answering why jewish people stand alone in apparently having to be instructed in what racism actually is

@LittleGlowingOblong
Because they are marches in support of an extremist terrorist government

And there is a reasons why citizens are ignoring these bans and still marching

That’s certainly not why I was marching. Or the people around me.

When posters claim they never saw any antisemitism, or that 'accusations of antisemitism are thrown around like confetti' I think of the thread on here where a MNetter posted several examples of clearly antisemitic placards from marches and people fell over themselves rushing to claim that they weren't antisemitic.

If your worldview is so black and white as to have to put people into categories of either 'oppressor or oppressed' then anything that suggests that your 'oppressor' group might actually also be oppressed in some way and that things are not black and white must be shouted down, minimised ignored or denied.

Then we have the role of Hamas - who have said that the terrible, horrendous atrocities of October 7th will be repeated as often as they can. Plenty of calls for a ceasefire from one side, nothing about what to do about Hamas. Minimising or ignoring what they did. A poster asking for evidence from a decent source about one of the most well-publicised atrocities apparently unaware that Hamas filmed and published the torture and murder themselves. Another poster on this thread claiming that Hamas released a couple of hostages 'on humanitarian grounds' as if the word humanitarian even exists in the same universe as those twisted, sick fucks. Very little comment on the video of the guy with the Hamas are Terrorists placard being attacked and his placard destroyed in Trafalgar Square. Hamas, and their actions being ignored, minimised, or worse, portrayed as heroic resistance because otherwise Israel = oppressor, Gaza = oppressed boxes might need a rethink.

What is happening in the Middle East is horrendous, barbaric and messy. It doesn't fit into neat boxes, and certainly will not be solved by facile calls for one side to just give up.

If your worldview is so black and white as to have to put people into categories of either 'oppressor or oppressed' then anything that suggests that your 'oppressor' group might actually also be oppressed in some way and that things are notblack and white must be shouted down, minimised ignored or denied

Can I ask how you think Israel is oppressed?