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Conflict in the Middle East

What are the people "Marching" in London every Saturday realistically hoping to achieve?

1000 replies

Flapjacker48 · 05/11/2023 09:34

It won't change UK government policy. It won't result in a ceasefire in Gaza. It won't magically resolve the situation in Palestine.

Same as all the other big marches - War in Iraq etc. Changed nothing.

OP posts:
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OneHurtSpaggettio · 05/11/2023 18:13

BethDuttonsTwin · 05/11/2023 17:42

No, I reject your lazy accusation, it’s meaningless.

Nothing more “meaningless” and “lazy” than refuting without even giving a reason.

The same goes for @ScribblingPixie

For anyone needing proof of the constant anti-Islam and Islamophobic sentiment, there’s your proof.

Islam has 1.7 billion followers worldwide. The call to prayer happens 5 times a day. It is a time to connect with God and find inner peace. Practicing Muslims stop to pray 5 times a day, no matter what, and at a time when many of them are grieving injustice, prayer is one of the only places to find solace.

I would find Jewish people or Christian people joining in and praying in their own ways at the protest, equally beautiful.

bearofepic · 05/11/2023 18:13

@ChickHenLittle hear hear. too much of this nasty smearing on this thread.

Reallifelurker · 05/11/2023 18:17

too much of this nasty smearing on this thread.

This thread hasn’t been to bad but there’s a lot of straw men and gaslighting going on. It’s weird being told by a person on the internet what your thoughts and motivations are. I’ve felt like an actor taking directions on how to play my part sometimes.

bearofepic · 05/11/2023 18:18

@Reallifelurker agree totally.

cathyj77 · 05/11/2023 18:19

@bearofepic i would love to believe that’s the reason - the number of people killed.

But the anti-Israel rage started a day or two after 7 October itself - before Israel had responded at all, marches were being organised to protest the evil regime. So I don’t believe it’s a sheer numbers game, sorry. I think there is a unique loathing of the world’s one Jewish state and the rhetoric and slogans used at these marches does literally nothing to dispel that.

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:19

ChickHenLittle · 05/11/2023 18:13

Do stop putting words in people's mouths.
If you'd ever engaged with this poster previously you'd know that's absolutely not what they want, in addition to the fact they didn't say so.

Ok, apologies. By Israel winning I mean achieving their stated aim which is to destroy the military capability of the terrorists Hamas, who routinely fire rockets at their civilians and who recently murdered & tortured 1400 civilians & took over 200 hostage. Hamas have said they wil do it again and again until they have destroyed Israel. So, what does Israel NOT winning look like?

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:22

This was what @Chickenlittle said 'When sunak said uk hopes Israel wins he wasn’t speaking for me or that’s not what I hope'

EasterIssland · 05/11/2023 18:25

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:19

Ok, apologies. By Israel winning I mean achieving their stated aim which is to destroy the military capability of the terrorists Hamas, who routinely fire rockets at their civilians and who recently murdered & tortured 1400 civilians & took over 200 hostage. Hamas have said they wil do it again and again until they have destroyed Israel. So, what does Israel NOT winning look like?

Thanks @ChickHenLittle

ChickHenLittle · 05/11/2023 18:25

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:22

This was what @Chickenlittle said 'When sunak said uk hopes Israel wins he wasn’t speaking for me or that’s not what I hope'

You have @ the wrong poster - I have never said that. I do agree somewhat, but I didn't post it.

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:26

Sorry @chickenhenlittle , I meant @easterissland. Thats the comment I was referring to. I genuinely get that people want to resolve this but the attack on 7 October was so existential and Hamas's stated aims are SO clear, and they are backed by Iran who are equally unequivocal I just don't think you can 'both sides' this situation. Hamas are evil and have to be defeated. If Israel don't win in some form, they are finished.

EasterIssland · 05/11/2023 18:26

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:22

This was what @Chickenlittle said 'When sunak said uk hopes Israel wins he wasn’t speaking for me or that’s not what I hope'

Not really. That was me and not chicken little . And I’ve explained already why I don’t agree with sunak. Not going to repeat myself

tunainatin · 05/11/2023 18:26

While it's not something I've ever done as yet I do see the point. It is evidence that the people disagree with the government and that's important.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 05/11/2023 18:39

psychoanalyticnonsense · 05/11/2023 17:01

The hope is that the oppression stops but you wouldn't get what that means would you

Sorry, I don't understand your answer? Do you mean oppression would stop if Hamas won? Well it wouldn't would it , because Hamas oppress their own people.

Livinginanotherworld · 05/11/2023 18:40

Usou · 05/11/2023 12:08

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

A fair part of it appears to be aggressive Islamo-fascism.

What was the motivation for doing a "call to prayer" by the Cenotaph?

Performative Islamo-fascism specifically to intimidate.

Wow, what dystopian world do you want to live in, where you don’t have the right or the power to protest.

The marches are not anti-Jewish, they are anti-Israeli government and pro-Palestine. There are many Jewish people on the marches, we all want the same thing. They are horrified at what’s happening, they are not scared to be in a railway station, they are calling for a ceasefire as well.
I can only think that if you are scared to be out in London that you are a supporter of Israeli genocide yourself. You would be welcomed and hugged if you stood with them. You’ve been listening to Cruella Braverman too much with her proud zionist husband, there are no hate marches. Don’t fall for it !
The Marches are showing our government that we don’t stand with Israel, that we want an end to the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Gaza. There are marches all over the world, the world leaders need to listen. The people in Gaza are taking a little bit of comfort, knowing they are not alone and some people do care.

cathyj77 · 05/11/2023 18:44

@Livinginanotherworld I am not a ‘supporter of Israeli genocide’ or an admirer of Suella Braverman. I’m a left-wing Jew who is extremely critical of the current Israeli govt but also doesn’t want to hear people shouting ‘intifada’ and about cleansing Israel of Jews four weeks after the biggest massacre since the Holocaust.

hope that clears things up.

quantumbutterfly · 05/11/2023 18:48

Livinginanotherworld · 05/11/2023 18:40

Wow, what dystopian world do you want to live in, where you don’t have the right or the power to protest.

The marches are not anti-Jewish, they are anti-Israeli government and pro-Palestine. There are many Jewish people on the marches, we all want the same thing. They are horrified at what’s happening, they are not scared to be in a railway station, they are calling for a ceasefire as well.
I can only think that if you are scared to be out in London that you are a supporter of Israeli genocide yourself. You would be welcomed and hugged if you stood with them. You’ve been listening to Cruella Braverman too much with her proud zionist husband, there are no hate marches. Don’t fall for it !
The Marches are showing our government that we don’t stand with Israel, that we want an end to the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Gaza. There are marches all over the world, the world leaders need to listen. The people in Gaza are taking a little bit of comfort, knowing they are not alone and some people do care.

Erm...didn't even know or care that her husband is Jewish, what are you implying?

OneHurtSpaggettio · 05/11/2023 18:50

cathyj77 · 05/11/2023 17:40

@OneHurtSpaggettio @Reallifelurker Yes, I have seen both the marches and some of the sit-ins at stations etc.

I don't agree that only a 'miniscule' proportion of those marches are expressing worrying sentiments. I guess it depends on your definition of worrying sentiments.

Here's how I define it. Are the things being said about Israel the same sorts of things people would say about other countries/governments they are criticising on a march? If you replace the word 'Israel' with 'UK' or 'USA' or 'Russia' does the sentence still make sense and sound like something someone would say at a protest? If it does, fine/great, it is legitimate protest against the Israeli government. If it doesn't, it's a special sort of unique hatred reserved for Israel. And my view on these marches is that there is a lot that falls on the wrong side of that line.

I did not, in any Ukraine protest/vigil, see calls for Russia/Russians to be binned, eliminated, driven into the sea, nor did I see any swastikas.

It is perfectly possible to be highly critical of this Israeli government (I am) without calling them Nazis (which they're not) or an Apartheid state (which they're also not).

I did not, in any Ukraine protest/vigil, see calls for Russia/Russians to be binned, eliminated, driven into the sea, nor did I see any swastikas.

How many placards did you see that had swastikas and that said Israel should be driven into the sea?

I haven’t seen any swastikas, apart from on a placard (that was posted on MN) that likened the Israeli govt to Nazis.

People are acting as if this is a neo-Nazi march and that they’re using swastikas to say Jewish people should be killed, but none of the U.K. demos have used the swastika in that way. Swastikas have only been used to liken the Israeli govt to the Nazis.

I have seen Israeli leftists liken the persecution of the Palestinians to that of the Jewish people in Germany, as well as other Jewish people who have drawn comparison.

I personally think that only Jewish people should have the right to draw that comparison, due to the sensitivity of it.

However, I don’t think that it’s a common sight at marches. Not by a long shot. Maybe you’ll see one sign like that and that is it.

It is perfectly possible to be highly critical of this Israeli government (I am) without calling them Nazis (which they're not) or an Apartheid state (which they're also not).

I agree with most of what you’ve said, but when it comes to apartheid, I agree with Human Rights Watch and the UN report that found that it does amount to apartheid:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

People are uniquely angry at this situation because the UK government didn’t say that it “hopes Russia wins” and send the RAF and Navy to defend Russia, using our ridiculously high taxes to pay the bill.

Israel have killed 4,000 babies and children in 4 weeks. One kid in Gaza dies every 10 minutes according to Save the Children:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8quDh4VDZ5c

The situation in Gaza is uniquely awful, as is our government’s verbal and monetary support of it. It simply cannot be compared to previous examples.

It is awful that some people conflate U.K. Jewish people with the actions Israeli government, and I am saddened that Jewish people don’t feel safe, but that’s to do with the way humans operate rather than the marches.

After the London terror attack, the Muslims in my life suffered horrific abuse, including one of my friends have a guy come up to her who then tried to push her onto the train tracks! Racist people will always find an excuse.

A boy runs alongside a tall concrete wall

A Threshold Crossed

The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primaril...

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

LittleGlowingOblong · 05/11/2023 18:55

The thing that worries me is that, after this ongoing genocide, in which countries are Jews going to feel truly safe, for the foreseeable future?

If I, a middle aged white woman North European atheist, am feeling utterly aghast and sickened by the atrocities committed by both sides - but particularly by the Israelis tbh - I can’t imagine how violated both Jews and Muslims are feeling.

Problem is, Muslims outnumber Jews worldwide something like 100:1. It’s sheer strength of numbers.

Everything’s fucked, right over the horizon and beyond, thanks to the fundamentalist savagery of Hamas, and that bloodthirsty Netanyahu and his fascist henchmen.

Girlswillbetwirls · 05/11/2023 18:56

bearofepic · 05/11/2023 18:03

The reason people are more vocal and upset about this is because in three weeks more children were killed vs all conflicts since 2019. That's a good reason to be upset and vocal.

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-3195-children-killed-three-weeks-surpasses-annual-number-children-killed-conflict-zones

Not only that but this is an ongoing humanitarian issue over there https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/15/middleeast/huwara-west-bank-settler-attack-cmd-intl/index.html

“settlers” ie. Invaders are pushing Palestinians out. This link is from June but a more recent post on CNN’s instagram page said there’s been an uptick in this kind of thing over the past few weeks, as they’re taking advantage of the situation.

Why is this allowed? I don’t understand.

Huwara: The settler attack on this West Bank town was called a 'pogrom' by Israel's military. Videos show soldiers did little to stop it | CNN

When hundreds of Israeli settlers rampaged through Huwara and surrounding Palestinian towns in the occupied West Bank on February 26, leaving at least one Palestinian man dead and hundreds of others injured, it was billed as “revenge” after a Palestini...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/15/middleeast/huwara-west-bank-settler-attack-cmd-intl/index.html

Livinginanotherworld · 05/11/2023 19:09

Angrycat2768 · 05/11/2023 13:38

They could also release the Israeli hostages, stop firing rockets into Israel and call for a ceasefire. They aren't doing any of those things. because they couldn't care less about Palestinians.

Well if we are going to talk about hostages it’s only fair we mention the small problem of between 8-10 thousand palestian hostages held without charge in Israel including children. Many brutally attacked and injured. A hostage swap was one of the reasons for the awful attack on 07 Oct, but no, Netanyahu won’t negotiate on them.

Totallymessed · 05/11/2023 19:29

LittleGlowingOblong · 05/11/2023 18:55

The thing that worries me is that, after this ongoing genocide, in which countries are Jews going to feel truly safe, for the foreseeable future?

If I, a middle aged white woman North European atheist, am feeling utterly aghast and sickened by the atrocities committed by both sides - but particularly by the Israelis tbh - I can’t imagine how violated both Jews and Muslims are feeling.

Problem is, Muslims outnumber Jews worldwide something like 100:1. It’s sheer strength of numbers.

Everything’s fucked, right over the horizon and beyond, thanks to the fundamentalist savagery of Hamas, and that bloodthirsty Netanyahu and his fascist henchmen.

I'm not someone who sympathised particularly with Israel, but the past month and the truly disturbing way antisemitism has been unleashed in the UK has convinced me 100% that Israel has to exist. Jews are a tiny minority in most countries, and it's clear that, however much people in the UK might like to think of ourselves as being tolerant, unfortunately a significant minority are antisemites. It's obvious that the only way for Jewish people to be safe is to have a majority Jewish country. They can't rely on non-Jews to take any action to protect them against their fellow citizens who hate them.

It's incredibly sad to see what is going on in Europe, less than a century after the holocaust. I feel ashamed.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 05/11/2023 19:50

Livinginanotherworld · 05/11/2023 19:09

Well if we are going to talk about hostages it’s only fair we mention the small problem of between 8-10 thousand palestian hostages held without charge in Israel including children. Many brutally attacked and injured. A hostage swap was one of the reasons for the awful attack on 07 Oct, but no, Netanyahu won’t negotiate on them.

Yes, up to 1000 of the prisoners being held by Israel are kids.

They are systematically tortured physically and mentally, degraded and humiliated whilst being held.

From the article:

Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said.

Most children are beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded during arrest. They are also interrogated at unknown locations without the presence of a caregiver, and are often deprived of food, water and sleep, or access to legal counsel, according to the research. The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children.

60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.

Jason Lee, Save the Children’s Country Director in the occupied Palestinian territory, said:

Each year approximately 500-700 Palestinian children come into contact with the Israeli military court system; they are the only children in the world to experience systematic prosecution in military courts. Our research shows – once again - that they are subject to serious and widespread abuse at the hands of those who are meant to be looking after them.

“There’s simply no justification for beating and stripping children, treating them like animals or robbing them of their futures. This is a child protection crisis that can no longer be ignored. There must finally be an end to this abusive military detention system.”

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

Save the Children also created a report:

“More than half of the children consulted for this report were denied access to support and comfort from their families, and in some instances they were made to believe that their families had abandoned them – threatening a key pillar of psychological resilience, jeopardising their ability to recover.

In every respect, the Israeli military detention system appears designed to render Palestinian children defenceless.

An Israeli boy throws a stone from a settlement at a Palestinian child. In the unlikely event that he is arrested, he will be bailed. If he is questioned, it will be with full safeguards. If he is prosecuted, it will be before a juvenile court, with his parents and a lawyer present. If convicted, he will be dealt with in the community under the supervision of a professional probation service. Juvenile justice in Israel ticks all the boxes.

The Palestinian boy throws the stone back. In the small hours of the morning soldiers of the Israel Defence Force burst into his home, terrify the family, seize the child and transport him, hooded or blindfolded and face down on the floor of a military vehicle, his hands bound, across the border which separates the occupied territory of the West Bank from the state of Israel.

There, in military custody, with no access to parents or a lawyer, he may be kept in isolation for days; he will be shouted at, threatened and possibly struck by an interrogator who wants the names of other children.

He will be required to sign a confession, often in a language he doesn’t understand. If he eventually sees a lawyer, he will be advised that there is no point in pleading not guilty because practically everyone before the military juvenile courts is convicted.

It may be months, even years, before he sees his family again, and when he does he may well be permanently damaged.”

Livinginanotherworld · 05/11/2023 19:51

bearofepic · 05/11/2023 15:20

Imagine nobody protested. It would give our own govt even more confidence that they can do whatever they want on foreign policy regardless of the consequences, no matter how sinister.

We have no idea how much worse our own foreign policy could be on this if people weren't protesting.

At least if our govt can see us protesting they know there's a significant proportion who don't support their current action. They at least know they don't have carte blanche to make things even more difficult for Palestinians.

This !

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