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Conflict in the Middle East

Illegal settlements

345 replies

immigrant002 · 04/11/2023 17:32

I just watched a piece on itv and sky news how Palestinians are abandoning their houses in the west bank as they face severe intimidation by settlers and army forces

The reporter says the settlements are illegal they are universally accepted as illegal so my question is why is nobody doing anything ??
What is the purpose of international law and the UN ? Is it just Israel that gets away with is ?

I just don't see what the point of saying something is illegal but continuing to build more and more settlements for people from
US kicking Palestinians out of their homes ? Why are they getting away with this ?

OP posts:
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kistanbul · 22/09/2024 08:11

DoingTheChaCha · 09/07/2024 23:49

I’ve read lots of conflicting information which still doesn’t make it clear tbh.

From what I’ve read until 1967, people living in the West Bank were under Jordanian rule as Jordan annexed it in 1949, had Jordanian passports and used Jordanian currency. Palestinians weren’t asking for a state independent from Jordan then I believe. Israel captured the West Bank in the six day war (1967) after Jordan joined in the war with Egypt and Syria. For some reason it was never given back to Jordan and they cut ties with it in 1988. Surely Jordan was still responsible for those in the West Bank though?

This is what I don’t understand?

Prior to that it was part of the British Mandate for Palestine and prior to that part of Ottoman Syria.

So who is it occupied from if Jordan didn’t take it back?

Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of one of the founders of Hamas said he lived in Ramallah and everyone had Jordanian passports.

Also from what I’ve read Israel have militarily occupied the West Bank due to its hilly region from which Israel can be easily be bombarded from, into highly populated areas and constant terrorist attacks into Israel. Mosab Yousef, as the son of the founder of Hamas lived in the West Bank and has described working with Israel to prevent terror attacks from the West Bank into Israel so Hamas must be in the West Bank too despite posts I’ve seen saying they aren’t? Wouldn’t Israel have no reason to be there if there was no threat of terrorism into Israel?

I rather thought posters like @EasterIssland, who post a lot on this board might be able to explain more clearly?

Palestine wasn’t part of Jordan. There was a transitional period after WW2 while the two states were being established, but obviously that didn’t work out as planned.
Some extremist Israelis view any movement of Palestinians away from Palestine or of taking help from neighbouring countries as somehow evidence that they have given up or don’t deserve their rights as Palestinians. There is no Palestinian state, so of course people have passports from counties they have other ties to. If you come across anything that implies that people leaving their region have given up all rights to that region, consider what that means for the rights of Jewish people in Israel and look for less extreme reading material. A lot of Israelis have duel nationality as well.
Countries all over the world live next to countries that want to distroy them. It’s been hundreds of years since most people thought that was a reason for invasion rather than peace talks.

SharonEllis · 22/09/2024 08:58

kistanbul · 22/09/2024 08:11

Palestine wasn’t part of Jordan. There was a transitional period after WW2 while the two states were being established, but obviously that didn’t work out as planned.
Some extremist Israelis view any movement of Palestinians away from Palestine or of taking help from neighbouring countries as somehow evidence that they have given up or don’t deserve their rights as Palestinians. There is no Palestinian state, so of course people have passports from counties they have other ties to. If you come across anything that implies that people leaving their region have given up all rights to that region, consider what that means for the rights of Jewish people in Israel and look for less extreme reading material. A lot of Israelis have duel nationality as well.
Countries all over the world live next to countries that want to distroy them. It’s been hundreds of years since most people thought that was a reason for invasion rather than peace talks.

And Israel has been involved in rather a lot of peace talks over the years.

kistanbul · 22/09/2024 11:33

SharonEllis · 22/09/2024 08:58

And Israel has been involved in rather a lot of peace talks over the years.

And so have Palestinians.

Sadly until people stop arguing about whose history gives them the greatest right to kill each others children and starts making concessions and compromises, violence will continue .

And compromise will involve Israel giving up land, leaving Jerusalem and prosecuting settlers. And will involve Palestine doing the same. Both must commit to the territorial integrity and full rights of the other. So far the closest we’ve come to that led to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by Israeli extremists.

Silence1 · 22/09/2024 14:34

I have started to read this article. If you skip to the end and read about the lawlessness and as described by them Jewish terrorism overseen by the IDF, settlers and far right ministers in the Israeli Govt it is fecking mind blowing.
There is no doubt in my mind now that the settler officer in the IDF was behind the murder of the foreign aid workers including British citizens.

One extract :
The video addresses many matters of security, but it never addresses the question of law. When we asked the commander of the division that produced the video, Brig. Gen. Avi Bluth, why the I.D.F. was promoting the military support of settlements that are illegal under Israeli law, he directly asserted that the farms were indeed legal and offered to arrange for us to tour some of them. Later, a spokesman for the army apologized for the general’s remarks, acknowledged that the farms were illegal and announced that the I.D.F. would no longer be promoting the video. This May, Bluth was nonetheless subsequently promoted to head Israel’s Central Command, responsible for all Israeli troops in central Israel and the West Bank.
In August, Bluth will replace Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox, who during his final months in charge of the West Bank has seen a near-total breakdown of law enforcement in his area of command. In late October, Fox wrote a letter to his boss, the chief of Israel’s military staff, saying that the surge of Jewish terrorism carried out in revenge for the Oct. 7 attacks “could set the West Bank on fire.” The I.D.F. is the highest security authority in the West Bank, but the military’s top commander put the blame squarely on the police — who ultimately answer to Ben-Gvir. Fox said he had established a special task force to deal with Jewish terrorism, but investigating and arresting the perpetrators is “entirely in the hands of the Israeli police.”
And, he wrote, they aren’t doing their jobs.

"The next to speak was Col. Roi Zweig-Lavi, the Central Command’s Operations Directorate officer. He said that many of these incidents involved false claims. In fact, he said, some of the villagers had probably destroyed their own homes, because of an “internal issue.” Now they were blaming the settlers to escape the consequences of their own actions.
Colonel Zweig-Lavi’s own views about the settlements, and his role in protecting them, were well known. In a 2022 speech, he told a group of yeshiva students in the West Bank that “the army and the settlements are one and the same.

How Extremist Settlers Took Over Israel - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Gunnersforthecup · 25/09/2024 11:24

7th October was more than another country passively "wanting to destroy them"; it was a full scale massacre intended to make war unavoidable. It would have been very difficult just to have "peace talks" after that.

7th October was specifically timed to disrupt peace initiatives in the area.

EasterIssland · 25/09/2024 13:01

Gunnersforthecup · 25/09/2024 11:24

7th October was more than another country passively "wanting to destroy them"; it was a full scale massacre intended to make war unavoidable. It would have been very difficult just to have "peace talks" after that.

7th October was specifically timed to disrupt peace initiatives in the area.

Are you justifying illegal settlements because of 7/10? Also , illegal settlements have existed long before 7/10

Gunnersforthecup · 25/09/2024 13:17

No, sorry, I was quoting another poster who thought that Israel should just live alongside other parties who want to destroy them and just do peace talks instead. I think there was more than just "wanting" going on, more actual destruction on the part of Hamas, aimed at ruining peace talks, in fact.

I agree that the settlement disputes are a different issue to the aftermath of October 7th.

StupidFarang · 25/09/2024 15:13

kistanbul · 22/09/2024 08:11

Palestine wasn’t part of Jordan. There was a transitional period after WW2 while the two states were being established, but obviously that didn’t work out as planned.
Some extremist Israelis view any movement of Palestinians away from Palestine or of taking help from neighbouring countries as somehow evidence that they have given up or don’t deserve their rights as Palestinians. There is no Palestinian state, so of course people have passports from counties they have other ties to. If you come across anything that implies that people leaving their region have given up all rights to that region, consider what that means for the rights of Jewish people in Israel and look for less extreme reading material. A lot of Israelis have duel nationality as well.
Countries all over the world live next to countries that want to distroy them. It’s been hundreds of years since most people thought that was a reason for invasion rather than peace talks.

That's absolutely not true, jawdroppingly so. Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948 and only lost it in 1967 after attacking Israel in the 6 day war. They never had any intention to establish a Palestinian state there. They all still believed they could destroy Israel but even then it was never with the intention of a Palestinian state - Syria, Jordan and Egypt would have just fought over it among themselves. Ironically, before 1948, Palestinian Arabs never even really referred to themselves as Palestinians under the Brits and Turks, they saw themselves as a province of Syria if anything. It was the Palestinian Jews who called themselves Palestinian prior to 1948.

The day after the British left in 1948, Palestinian zionists established the State of Israel to replace the British mandate. The Palestinian Arabs did not establish a State of Palestine. Not then and not in the years between 1948 and 1967 when Egypt and Jordan ruled Gaza and Wb respectively. Why not if that was always the aim?

StupidFarang · 25/09/2024 15:28

@immigrant002
Israel contends that the land isn't occupied since (as a pp pointed out) Jordan has ceded all claims on the WB. Thus, from whom is it occupied?
It's a moot point since legally it's a very weird situation. Effectively, Areas C (where the settlements nearly all are) are under military rule EXCEPT the settlemetns which seem to be some weird extra-territorial application of Israeli civil law. And herein lies some of the difficulty and injustice. Under Israeli civil law, army doesn't have power of arrest or application of criminal law, that's the job of the police. But under Israeli military rule, it's the army and the rules are harsher. As a temporary interim administration, you can accept military rule for a short time but it's obviously not a long term solution. Oslo was meant to help solve this by allowing Palestinan civil and security rule in Area A, only civil rule in Area B and Israeli rule in Area C (where all the settlements are). BUt still not great and, again, legally problematic.

It's important to note that the vast majority of the settlers live in basically urban towns very close to the Israeli border such as Maale Adumim, Beitar Illit, Modiin Illit. Others were in areas which the Arabs had ethnically cleansed previously like Gush Etzion. The plan was to absorb those settlements into Israel and provide land swaps for a future Palestinian state. While I don't think israel should have built them to begin with, it should be recognised that these are civilians who simply moved for quality of life, very close to the border and with encouragement and support of Israeli government and in accordance with Israeli law. At this point, nearly all land was public and not privately owned.

The problems which have been growing over the last couple of decades and getting worse are:

  1. growing extremist violent settler movement who are being treated with kid gloves by Israeli govt and police. This has just got worse since Ben Gvir (extreme right winger) controls the police. The police do nothing and the army cannot arrest Israeli citizens.
  2. appropriation of privately held lands. This is also against Israeli law, private citizens cannot just take someone else's privately held land. The law isn't being applied and this is creating a chaotic situation.

I recommend reading "Lords of the Land" by Akiva Eldar if you are intersted in knowing how this settler movement became so powerful in Israel. It was not an intentional move of the Israeli govts of the 70s.

AhNowTed · 26/09/2024 17:47

I posted this film on another thread.

It's an important testimony.

All the contributors are Israeli.

TRT World’s award-winning documentary “Holy Redemption: Stealing Palestinian Land” exposes how the sick mentality of illegal Zionist settlers is used against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank

Kindatired · 26/09/2024 19:51

Not then and not in the years between 1948 and 1967 when Egypt and Jordan ruled Gaza and Wb respectively. Why not if that was always the aim?
Looks like the great dream of living in a Jewish stare wasn’t that great if you’re not Jewish maybe? Maybe they tried and it didn’t work for them?After 20 years of Jewish settlements, mass migration and land grabs they realised that they were not going to get their homes back like they had been promised. Zambia didn’t become Zambia until 1964- it doesn’t mean that the people of Northern Rhodesia wanted to be ruled forever by the Brits or didn’t have their own languages and cultures. Or that they don’t have a national identity?The idea of a Jewish national state is pretty new as well isn’t it?
I read that Northern Israel is 53% Arab by population, so maybe Northern Israel should be given to Lebanon if there’s no need for a separate Palestinian state. And did anyone offer to give the West Bank back to Jordan if there’s not going to be a Palestinian state? Your logic is leading to a suggestion that either the Palestinian Arabs of both Christian and Muslim traditions, should (a) be ethnically cleansed or (b)continue to live in an right wing ethno nationalist theocracy under an apartheid- like regime or (c) decide that that there’s no such thing as Palestinians because there isn’t a Palestinian state and they weren’t called Palestinians until Israel was created.

StupidFarang · 30/09/2024 01:32

Kindatired · 26/09/2024 19:51

Not then and not in the years between 1948 and 1967 when Egypt and Jordan ruled Gaza and Wb respectively. Why not if that was always the aim?
Looks like the great dream of living in a Jewish stare wasn’t that great if you’re not Jewish maybe? Maybe they tried and it didn’t work for them?After 20 years of Jewish settlements, mass migration and land grabs they realised that they were not going to get their homes back like they had been promised. Zambia didn’t become Zambia until 1964- it doesn’t mean that the people of Northern Rhodesia wanted to be ruled forever by the Brits or didn’t have their own languages and cultures. Or that they don’t have a national identity?The idea of a Jewish national state is pretty new as well isn’t it?
I read that Northern Israel is 53% Arab by population, so maybe Northern Israel should be given to Lebanon if there’s no need for a separate Palestinian state. And did anyone offer to give the West Bank back to Jordan if there’s not going to be a Palestinian state? Your logic is leading to a suggestion that either the Palestinian Arabs of both Christian and Muslim traditions, should (a) be ethnically cleansed or (b)continue to live in an right wing ethno nationalist theocracy under an apartheid- like regime or (c) decide that that there’s no such thing as Palestinians because there isn’t a Palestinian state and they weren’t called Palestinians until Israel was created.

That's totally incoherent and shows complete misunderstanding of history.
The wb and gaza were controlled by Jordan and Egypt respectively (after havjng 100% ethnically cleansed or murdered all Jews lviing in those areas btw). Would have been pretty straightforward to have established a Palestinian state there if they'd have wanted. Why didn't they?

StupidFarang · 30/09/2024 03:00

Plus don't forget that the Palestinian zionists declared the state of israel to replace the British mandate the day after the Brits left in May 1948. The Palestinian Arabs could equally have done so. Why didn't they?

Kindatired · 30/09/2024 20:48

Sorry, I don’t see the point you are trying to make.
Do you have a problem with the right to self determination?
What do you think should happen to the people of Gaza and the West Bank and why?
or is it a case of “Oh dear, you missed the deadline for having your own state, now we’ll just ethnically cleanse you ?”

StupidFarang · 01/10/2024 03:57

Kindatired · 30/09/2024 20:48

Sorry, I don’t see the point you are trying to make.
Do you have a problem with the right to self determination?
What do you think should happen to the people of Gaza and the West Bank and why?
or is it a case of “Oh dear, you missed the deadline for having your own state, now we’ll just ethnically cleanse you ?”

Not in the slightest. Their modern national identity is probably stronger than many in the middle east now. And they shouldn't be living under military rule for 60+ years. Perhaps if israel hadn't won the 6 day war, they'd have continued being content to be Jordanian and Egyptian but that's conjecture and a moot point.
Nonetheless historical accuracy is important. There was no Palestinian state and Israel didn't occupy lands from it.

Kindatired · 01/10/2024 18:22

@StupidFarang “There was no Palestinian state”
I see your point. I just assumed that everyone on this thread took that for granted. I was assuming you were on the tack of “There’s no need for a two state solution vpbecause there’s already a Palestinian state called Jordan”. Apologies

kistanbul · 01/10/2024 22:48

Palestine has never been part of Jordan. But it’s all irrelevant. October 7th was a horrific and disgusting chapter on a much longer story. We can’t pretend this war started in 2023. But we have to move forward.

Constantly going over who really started it and finding “evidence” Palestinians don’t really deserve their own nation on the land of their grandparents and great grandparents is not going ti stop people dying. Israel has to accept the right of Palestine to exist.

EasterIssland · 06/10/2024 14:57

But the expansion of Israel and its proxies is an absolute, fundamental necessity for the United States to have the steady leadership there,” Walz said early in the debate

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/vance-walz-vice-presidential-debate-election-2024/card/tim-walz-trips-over-his-words-in-vp-debate-n0fYFC6qv9qfx0MCih7C

EasterIssland · 15/10/2024 17:00

Bbc

The UK government has announced sanctions on three illegal settler outposts and four organisations that it says have "supported and sponsored violence against communities" in the West Bank.
The government says the measures follow an unprecedented rise in settler violence in the West Bank over the past year.
Strict financial restrictions will be placed on those who commit these acts, the government adds.
Foreign Secretary David Lammy says “the Israeli government must crack down on settler violence and stop the legalisation of settler outposts".
Lammy says he visited the West Bank earlier this year and saw an "environment of impunity".
This is the third time the UK has announced sanctions targeting settler violence in the West Ban

SharonEllis · 10/01/2025 07:46

The article doesnt say Trump will give carte blanche. In fact it gives reasons why he might not.

EasterIssland · 10/01/2025 07:52

SharonEllis · 10/01/2025 07:46

The article doesnt say Trump will give carte blanche. In fact it gives reasons why he might not.

I didn’t put that from a Trump POV but from a settler pov

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