"You don’t need to share your views on Gaza"

[TheWayTheLightFalls]

A) Headline is terrible b) absolutely aware of posting my opinion of someone else's opinion about everyone having too much of an opinion on things, on a chat forum which is all about sharing opinions. And I can give or take James Marriott. But, actually - I agree with this.

"One of the bleakest discoveries of the pandemic was quite how many people imagined themselves to be amateur epidemiologists brimming with compelling insights on lockdowns and vaccine science. The war in Ukraine turned the epidemiologists into experts on military hardware. The war in Gaza has bestowed an unexpected new round of degrees in Middle Eastern history."

He goes on to explicate, though I'm not sure how much of a published paywalled newspaper article I can legitimately post here.

I just wish there was more "I don't know", more "It seems like x but I can also see that it might be y, or z". More "Here's something I found but does anyone know anything about this source, is it legit?" People on this forum are literate, typically with some education behind them, demographically likely to be at or near middle age. I cannot bear the hot takes and unreferenced links from all corners of the internet. It's unhelpful and, I'd say, actually harmful - people read it and get stirred up and pushed to more extreme position taking, more black and white thinking.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/you-dont-need-to-share-your-views-on-gaza-n87dq0sj9

This thread will change nothing, of course, but if we're all sharing our opinions then this is mine.

I don't think people are shut down. We are fighting (in my case supporting Israel) precisely to stop terrorists like Hamas and ISIS and all those in Saudi and all the other countries where freedom of speech is not allowed andindeed where apostacy can be punished by death and women's rights are not respected nor are women treated as equal. I have never denied Palestinians have been killed by Israel, but Hamas invaded Israel, slit the throats of babies and chose to bring the forces of democracy upon the Gaza strip. It is not nice anyone is killed, even Hamas terrorists - I would rather they were tried as we tried to do with some after WII at Nurembourg but in war there will b innocent people killed I am afraid. The cause is worth it to ensure we preserve our rights here in the UK.

On the difficult issue of propaganda all sides will use it. Photos due to AI etc are getting easy to fake and we all need to try to employ critical thinking as much as possible and listen to all views. Despite the risks of the internet meaning there is more scope of untrue matters to be distributed, the freedom of the internet in the West is worth preserving.

Also, let's bear in mind that the present strategy of carpet bombing innocent civilians, collective punishment, war crimes is not an effective strategy in solving the issue of Hamas or terrorism in general.
This.

You can't bomb a terrorist ideology out of existence.

Bombing civilians, including civilians who had fled to areas you say are safe only to bomb those areas is also unlikely to generate much support because normal, rational people (who aren't ideologically determined to defend their 'side') are highly likely to to view this as abhorrent.

What indiscriminately flattening civilians does is ensure that there's another generation of traumatised and vulnerable children growing up ripe for radicalisation.

People need to stop with "yeah but Hamas are awful, what's the IDF to do? It's unfortunate that civilians die but that's not the IDF's fault" and need to stop pretending that people questioning the morality of the IDF's chosen course are somehow Hamas supporters.

Most normal rational people are capable of seeing human suffering and thinking the adults need to get in a room and sort it out, instead of bitching online about why their side is better than the other.

Sometimes I wonder if people can actually hear/read their words when they say that it is ok to commit genocide to defend Israel. It boils down to racism pure and simple - Palestinian lives are dispensable, always have been - and now we see the evidence clearly.

And while those politicians who are supporting Israel claim to feel sorry about the loss of innocent Palestinian lives right now, their sympathy is of no use to anyone unless they actually try to prevent the ongoing genocide.

Unfortunately some people are confusing Hamas and the Palestinian people and are placing an Israeli life as being worth more than a Palestinian.

Unfortunately some people are confusing Hamas and the Palestinian people and are placing an Israeli life as being worth more than a Palestinian.
You're very charitable. I don't even think some posters on here are confusing Hamas and Palestinian citizens. I suspect they entirely know the difference. They just don't care.

From the way some posters post it's very clear that only some civilian lives are worth saving and anyone else is just expendable as long as their side comes out on top. Obviously it's unfortunate that Palestinian children are being bombed, but that's war innit?

Totally agree, Lamelie.

This was by far the most convincing statement I have seen on the conflict. https://www.dw.com/en/german-vice-chancellor-speaks-out-on-antisemitic-incidents/video-67290547

Do all the people talking about collective punishment and genocide also disagree with the allies bombing Germany to defeat the Nazis? If not, why is this war suddenly genocide when no other one was? Dresden, Cologne, Hamburg and Berlin were flattened. Not a single building left standing in the Ruhr. Do people really think that every civilian who died in Germany was a Nazi? And if they do, why the special treatment of Israel's actions in a war that will inevitably harm civilians? I don't actually believe Israel can achieve its aims, but eliminating an enemy who has committed an act of war is not per se either illegal or genocide. Futile, tragic and destructive yes - like all wars.
And yes, I know jack shit, I'm just a German. What I suddenly do know is how the NSDAP succeeded.

@Switcher you can't compare the second world war with Palestine / Israel. The comparison is simply not fair.

Different time, different place, different setup, different history, different sides, different everything.

Additionally your comparison tactic is whataboutery, aimed at distracting from the atrocties and justifying what is going on.

Switcher
I have an issue with warfare that pays no regard for civilian lives, regardless of who is doing the bombing. I don't think it should be considered a blanket accepted approach.

When I think about the cities that were flattened in the blitz and have heard relatives speak of friends they lost in the bombings, I feel sick. I also feel sick thinking of civilians who fled to places Israel said were safe, only for them to be bombed later.

I don't think that collective punishment by withdrawing water from civilians is acceptable.

We're in 2023. After the horrors of two world wars and multiple genocides around the world since, we ought to be getting to a place where it's internationally unacceptable to wipe out civilians on a large scale.

If people really think that bombing civilians is going to stop terrorist ideologies in a global world then they're naive at best. The levels of whataboutery on these threads to minimise deaths of innocent civilians concerns me.

@bearofepic in other words your opinion is more valid than my opinion, because...you're an expert on the middle east who is able to verify the situation on the ground? It's an analogy, you don't have to like it, but calling it whataboutery is a meaningless putdown. The point is we've all decided who the good guy is here, and that's a bad thing.

@LolaSmiles Israel is not responsible for Gaza. They withdrew from it in 2005. It is Hamas who governs it and it is they who have not built, provided or maintained infrastructure. But as usual, the whole thread leads nowhere despite being about the fact that none of us are actually sure about the facts.

"your opinion is more valid" said who?

Your comment is what it is, whataboutery. I'm sorry if this assertion upsets you but maybe you don't understand the meaning. In case it is helpful, please read up on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Also I note the poster below my comment also recognised this.

You can't realistically fairly compare two different situations with radically different backgrounds, histories etc and to do so would be unfair, to both Israel and to Palestine.

And to add, it would also be unfair to all the people, both civilians and army, who fought and died in WW2.

It's not about good guys and bad guys but about how to move forward without losing more innocent lives.

Israel is not responsible for Gaza. They withdrew from it in 2005. It is Hamas who governs it and it is they who have not built, provided or maintained infrastructure. But as usual, the whole thread leads nowhere despite being about the fact that none of us are actually sure about the facts.
The issues with Gazan infrastructure have been covered to death on dozens of threads.

It's funny the progression on the topic. Now we're at the point where any criticism or challenge of collective punishment is not longer met with "but Hamas..." it's now if all else fails say 'but nobody knows the facts'

It's not about good guys and bad guys but about how to move forward without losing more innocent lives
This. It needs shouting from the rooftops. Normal, rational people with an ounce of human compassion (who aren't wedded to their own ideological 'side') are bothered about finding a solution that doesn't involve wiping out huge numbers of civilians.

You don't need to even think about World War 2. What about Iraq, how many civilians did we kill there? "Shock and awe" and Fallujah.

Or Mosul - less than 10 years ago. If there had been film footage coming out of Mosul, I wonder how many people would have been screaming that we should leave ISIS all alone and stop the bombing? But we didn't see any of it so nobody gave a s*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_abuses_during_the_Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017)

I would like to think that If we saw this kind of footage more often it would make people far more reluctant to engage in warfare but I'm not convinced that's true. And it wouldn't stop the likes of Hamas or Isis.