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Conflict in the Middle East
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25
Noicant · 02/11/2023 04:59

Salumanndi · 01/11/2023 23:26

Yes, "thousands" of Haredi have signed up. That's not even a drop in the bucket. To take a city like Gaza City alone, you need hundreds of thousands of experienced frontline soldiers who know MOUT combat. The IDF do not have these people, so these guys can sign up, just don't expect them to walk out of Gaza City after going in. The Russians literally levelled Grozny and it still became a meatgrinder for them, and the IDF are no Russian Army.

The guy who oversaw the Battle of Fallujah left for Israel a week ago and went back to the US after a couple of days with the leaving message of "you're on your own, Israel". That's how out of their depth the IDF is.

AS for dismantling the state, it's not impossible that civil war happens or simple outside forces bring about a collapse in the state's ability to function. All those mobilised people are now not doing the jobs they were doing in the tech sector or services or hospitality etc. No one is going to visit a warzone, and others will sanction the nation for what it's currently prosecuting.

Hezbollah are still on the sidelines. In 2014, they rocked the IDF by themselves, and they've only increased their capabilities. It's just a matter of when Nasrallah pulls the trigger or not. You now have the Houthis actively targeting Israel (the US said not to, after shooting down one of their ballistic missiles, so the Yemenis sent several more to make a point).

The Iron Dome has only so many interceptors, and they cost upwards of $50k each to take out $300 rockets by Hamas. It's only a matter of time before more places are given open and unprotected airspace as they have their AD reserves depleted, much as Russia did to Ukraine.

Does that then lead to Bibi negotiating a ceasefire? Who knows? Either way, there is no off ramp here. They've already crossed the Rubicon, so to speak, and I think this ends any naïve ideas of a negotiated settlement. It's Palestinians vs. the Israeli state, and I do not see how they come out of this better.

They either genocide each and every Palestinian, which will more than likely lead to the Arab nations waking the fuck up and taking action. Or they call an arbitrary truce at some point, which only leads to Hamas and everyone else seeing that the IDF is utterly toothless now and has to rely on US carrier strike groups in the Med to deter anyone else. That is NOT a good place to be in for the nation.

I think it depends on if Hezbollah engage, even if they do they run the very real risk of American intervention, most Lebanese politicians don’t want any part of this, obviously they can’t actually stop Hezbollah but the protests on the street are not necessarily an agreement to wage war in Israel. Hezbollah do actually care that their people are not bombed by either the Americans or Israel.

Sisi has been going around reassuring Egyptians that there won’t be spill-over (and has done everything he can to call for humanitarian aid whilst insisting the conflict stays on the other side of Egypts border).

Erdogan is happily supporting Hamas while trying to kill as many Kurds as possible so yeah he’s fine with all sorts, providing military aid to Hamas though is another thing entirely.

The Houthis have substantial problems in their own backyards, the missiles are a distraction, they aren’t a real threat.

The conversation in the gulf is a mix of real compassion for Palestinians, hating Israel and blaming Hamas (this is primarily commentators which I assume have the blessing of the leaders and saying what they can’t say directly) hamas have got a harder time with gulf interviewers than they have had with western outlets. So they will happily provide money for humanitarian aid but don’t think for one moment they will join a war against Israel, the Abraham accords were there for a reason. It’s worth remembering the muslim brotherhood is banned in saudi, bahrian, UAE, Egypt.

Because of the geography of Gaza and Israel the IDF have a system where people are regularly going to be rotated out (I can’t remember which news broadcast this was on/newspaper). The core of the IDF, tunnel specialist etc will probably be in there for the long term but reservists won’t be sitting in Gaza for months at a time. It’s a reasonable point that Hezbollah are better equipped than the first time round and their fighters are battle hardened. But even with minor shelling they have already lost over 50 men. There are syrian militants moving into Lebanon but their presence may well be a green light to America to protect Israels northern border (not boots on the ground but bombing the living daylights out of the border) The method of bombing the shit out of buildings and suspected tunnels is precisely to minimise loss of Israeli soldiers lives. Also civil collapse will only happen if Israelis turn on each other en masse which is unlikely to happen if they feel they are under existential threat.

There are absolutely reasons to see this setting off a regional war, Iran is in a bind because it’s been calling for the destruction of Israel ad nauseum for years but it’s currently sitting on it’s hands. I think they just haven’t decided what to do yet. A multi front attack on Israel will also be viewed very dimly by western governments and would attract more support to Israel (in terms of weapons funding etc). It would also mean european/american governments would probably start sanctions on participating governments.

I don’t think the Israelis are trying to commit genocide I think they are trying to root out Hamas. Telling people to move out of the way is not a sign of genocide. I’m sure there are people who would love to see an ethnic cleansing but I’ve also seen Israelis interviewed who want to see a ground invasion stopped because of the loss of Palestinian lives. Don’t assume that there is a unified voice in Israel and I think there are enough Israelis who would be horrified to see ethnic cleansing that the likelihood of that happening is minimal.

A lot of leaderships in the region do not like Hamas and I think the moves towards normalisation also indicate that the issue of what to do about a 2 state solution is seen more as a headache than a central issue. i think Israel has some crazy’s who would like to see every single last Palestinian gone and the same is true of the Palestinian side. BUT most normal people recognise that peace will only be realistically achieved through a 2 state solution, it is a sad thing there hasn’t been the leadership to achieve that.

If Hezbollah sit this one out then Israel stands, if Hezbollah get involved there will a be a wider regional conflict with immense suffering spreading to other countries in the region and Israel will still probably stand if somewhat battered.

Poudretteite · 02/11/2023 07:44

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 01/11/2023 23:41

If you oppress murder and squash people into a box. Eventually they will try to break free. Israel literally created the mess themselves. Then act surprised when it happens

Yes, raping young girls, decapitating teenagers with shovels, tying mothers and babies together and burning them alive and uploading the videos to their Facebook accounts is all Israel's creation and a natural urge to break free. I'm sure Hamas have some vacancies, feel free to join your righteous cause.

OP posts:
Donkeyseason · 02/11/2023 08:54

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Firstly, anti-Israel protestors have been accusing Israel of genocide for donkeys years, so you can’t use one recent quote after a atrocity to justify these accusations.

Secondly Israel has been warning of its bombings and telling people to evacuate the areas to be bombed. That is not the action of those wanting to commit genocide. It wasn’t the action of Hamas.

110APiccadilly · 02/11/2023 08:57

Noicant · 01/11/2023 18:38

I don’t think you can be pro Hamas and pro Gazan civillians at the same time.

You can't. Let's not forget that the evidence suggests they blew up their own hospital. By accident, to be fair (though think through the implications that they had enough explosives near a hospital to be able to blow it up and it's a pretty chilling picture).

Donkeyseason · 02/11/2023 09:02

I think the thing is nobody, on mumsnet anyway, are shocked that Hamas are bad. That hasn't been the shocking thing about this conflict. Everybody already knew that, I mean they are terrorists, what else are they going to be but bad? Is there a kind terrorist organisation out there?

If you were not shocked by what Hamas did you either have not paid any attention to what they did or you are a genuine psychopath. Hardened journalists who have spent decades covering conflicts and atrocities, including ISIS, cried at the footage they saw. It was shocking and it was appalling. It was another level and it was deliberately intended to be. that’s why they videod it.

To minimize this to defend all the focus going off the Israelis and onto Palestinians, instead of holding all victims in mind, is one of the most disgusting defenses I have read on here.

IsraelGazadiscussion · 02/11/2023 09:15

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zXT-jtNnO4

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israel-hamas-war-brother-of-hamas-victim-seen-in-brutal-video-says-she-was-pure-angel-12997381

These are just two stories of the 1400 Israelis slaughtered by the terrorists Hamas. Only in their early 20’s enjoying their lives as they should, brutally ended, dreams gone and only memories remaining, the last memory being the most horrific.
Imagine seeing a video of your young daughter badly beaten, being fucking paraded naked around the streets after the mass killings, to receive a call to be told they identified her skull fragments, no body to bury, nothing.
That’s not it all, a lady doing an interview had to arrange the burial of some of the victims, there was evidence of brutality on the bodies, men missing heads and limbs, some bodies with all bones completely broken they were limp, babies which couldn’t be identified because they were mostly charcoal, many showing evidence of being burned alive, kids, women and men. It’s as inhumane as you can possibly imagine.

Imagine if a country came and slaughtered 1400 of us with such barbarity, took 200 hostages and our leaders did nothing?

Imagine if that country continued to threaten our lives by openly stating their goal was to kill us all and more terrorist attacks like the above would happen 1,2,3 or more times.

Hamas need to be eradicated.

Neta jumped on the grenade and saved Iren's life

כאן חדשות | Neta Epstein and Iren Shavit, both 22, hid in the bomb shelter while terrorists entered their home in Kfar Aza and began throwing grenades inside...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zXT-jtNnO4

Donkeyseason · 02/11/2023 09:15

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 01/11/2023 23:41

If you oppress murder and squash people into a box. Eventually they will try to break free. Israel literally created the mess themselves. Then act surprised when it happens

Why is this always used to justify murder against Jewish Israelis, and to blame Jewish Israelis for their own murder.

But millennia of persecution and pogroms against Jewish people is never used as a justification for why Jewish people wanted a state of Israel?

So one group of people can be oppressed and that justifies their behaviour.

But another group of people can be oppressed and that does not justify their behaviour.

The only reason I can think of for this double think is blatant anti-semitism.

EasternStandard · 02/11/2023 09:18

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 01/11/2023 23:41

If you oppress murder and squash people into a box. Eventually they will try to break free. Israel literally created the mess themselves. Then act surprised when it happens

Have you read what happened on October 7th?

Which particular act of depravity and barbarism by Hamas makes you think of ‘breaking free’?

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:26

@Donkeyseason I'm sorry I must have missed that part where palestine oppressed the Jewish arrivals.... why are they allowed to do it to Palestinians?

And I agree. Jewish people where once oppressed. It doesn't give them the right to do that to another group. Everyone justifying iraeli behaviour based on a past oppression doesn't give them then right to do it to palestine. They have been bombing palestone on and off for years. Does anyone hear actually know any one from palestine or are you all getting uour info from the western media?

Poudretteite · 02/11/2023 09:27

EasternStandard · 02/11/2023 09:18

Have you read what happened on October 7th?

Which particular act of depravity and barbarism by Hamas makes you think of ‘breaking free’?

In one report Hamas describes breaking into a house, putting a baby in the oven and cooking it to death, while forcing its mother to watch and raping her.

There are people on this site who cheer it on and justify it and blame the victims.

I absolutely couldn't be any more sickened and outraged.

OP posts:
Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:28

@Poudretteite where is this report please?

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:42

@Poudretteite I have looked for it. I can see they have been accused. But I can't find they have admitted it or described it.

CapitaineBelkacem · 02/11/2023 09:44

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:26

@Donkeyseason I'm sorry I must have missed that part where palestine oppressed the Jewish arrivals.... why are they allowed to do it to Palestinians?

And I agree. Jewish people where once oppressed. It doesn't give them the right to do that to another group. Everyone justifying iraeli behaviour based on a past oppression doesn't give them then right to do it to palestine. They have been bombing palestone on and off for years. Does anyone hear actually know any one from palestine or are you all getting uour info from the western media?

Edited

Sorry I must have missed the part where Israel set up gas chambers and wiped most Palestinians off the face of the earth.

EasterIssland · 02/11/2023 09:46

I have read the oven story is not real and it is based in something that actually idf did to a Palestinian child
https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1719769906013458453

eardefender · 02/11/2023 09:46

sleepyscientist · 01/11/2023 19:44

We are ultimately responsible for this by creating the modern day state of Israel. On one hand you have a terrorist organisation that needs to be irradicated but instead of using one the best armies on the planet to target attacks on the ground they are carpet bombing children. You then have a leader calling for Jihad hiding behind the innocent.

It's looking more and more like dealing with children fighting over a toy, that if you can't share no one can have it. Looking on the only solution seems to be a two state solution (maybe moving Gaza to the side of the West Bank so it's not isolated) administered by a neutral party (I.e. not America or Iran) like NATO possibly for decades to come.

This is why it’s difficult to read these threads. Arrogant posters who are so behind. I don’t know if I can be bothered to address posts like this time and time again.

will anyone listen to hamas?

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:47

Oh OK. So.we are going to.argue which way of killing is a genocide now and which way is acceptable? So because they haven't used gas Chambers, it's OK then... because white phosphorus isn't just as bad is it? Bombing civilians isn't as bad is it? @CapitaineBelkacem

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:48

Thank you @EasterIssland

You know, israel have never lied in the past at all, have they?

EasterIssland · 02/11/2023 09:49

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:48

Thank you @EasterIssland

You know, israel have never lied in the past at all, have they?

No and before anyone talks about burning kids teeth … that one is a lie as well

IsraelGazadiscussion · 02/11/2023 09:50

@Fairtobefairohhhhhc

https://www.thejc.com/news/news/i-saw-a-baby-who-had-been-baked-in-an-oven-says-israeli-emergency-worker-6A8bb0Tq56ytMO46OevOzy

I found that, I also saw the twitter post about Hamas shooting dead the father, raping a woman and putting her baby in the oven. Apparently it was shared in a Telegram channel by Hamas.

https://www.thejc.com/news/news/i-saw-a-baby-who-had-been-baked-in-an-oven-says-israeli-emergency-worker-6A8bb0Tq56ytMO46OevOzy

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 09:50

And also@CapitaineBelkacem when did palestine put Jews in a gas chamber?

eardefender · 02/11/2023 09:52

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 01/11/2023 23:41

If you oppress murder and squash people into a box. Eventually they will try to break free. Israel literally created the mess themselves. Then act surprised when it happens

Do you think all terrorism is the fault of the victims? Di we in the uk deserve the Manchester and London bombings? Do you think this applies to garzans as well and they need to accept the response? or is your hate just reserved for Jews?

EasterIssland · 02/11/2023 09:54

eardefender · 02/11/2023 09:52

Do you think all terrorism is the fault of the victims? Di we in the uk deserve the Manchester and London bombings? Do you think this applies to garzans as well and they need to accept the response? or is your hate just reserved for Jews?

Citizens ? No they didn’t deserve the London and Manchester attacks. Was it a result of what the British government had done years before in Iraq and many other Arabic countries ? Definitely…
do you think that a child that survives the genocide in Palestine today is going to love their neighbours or will seek revenge for having lost have their family ?

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 02/11/2023 10:00

I don't have a problem with jews. I have a problem with oppressing palestine and using it for their own cause. Then being shocked when people fight back.

Horrificallyuntidy · 02/11/2023 10:00

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

backtowinter · 02/11/2023 10:01

EasterIssland · 02/11/2023 09:46

I have read the oven story is not real and it is based in something that actually idf did to a Palestinian child
https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1719769906013458453

I've read it was real and heard testimony saying so.

Has Stew Peters moved on from covid, Ukrainian baby organs and claiming there is no war in Ukraine.

We'll be seeing Hinkle quotes next