gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

You think how Israel operates is a democracy??

The Palestinians in Gaza don’t have free elections - I think the last one was about 15 years ago so difficult to protest.

The pp is saying the same on Gaza. No free elections, no democracy and no protest

In contrast to Israel with free vote, elections and protests

The Israeli version of democracy is similar to the one previously in South Africa - highly discriminatory. Millions of Palestinians in the West Bank live under Israel’s effective control but cannot participate in the political process, while hundreds of thousands of Palestinians residing in annexed East Jerusalem are “residents” rather than citizens and consequently cannot vote in national elections.

I think the UK is maintaining a relationship with Israel not the government, governments can change, they cannot have a relationship with Hamas for obvious reasons.

A change of leadership in Israel can lead to talks, a change of leadership in Hamas will not lead to talks.

Hamas is in charge of Gaza. Israel withdrew. Hamas defeated Fatah in a civil war, held elections and has never held an elections since. Nothing to do with Israel. Please do some research. Israel absolutely is the only democracy in the region, whatever its many imperfections.

But Israelis have the iron dome and bomb shelters in every home. Because they are constantly being attacked. That's why the deaths and injuries are so much less - but they're still living with constant terror threat.

I think what horrifies me more, the more I think about it, is not just Hamas's attacks on Israel but the fact that they have all this sophisticated infrastructure and tunnel network, and they don't put anything in place to protect their own civilians. In fact it's the opposite, the deaths of civilians is great for their propaganda. And that's without factoring in the failed rockets killing their own people. It's horrific. So there's a 'side' which is protected, because their own government actually prioritise the safety of their people, and a 'side' deliberately left there as sitting ducks and from what we hear, not even allowed to evacuate.

Israel absolutely is the only democracy in the region, whatever its many imperfections.

And look what they have to show for it. Netanyahu and his ilk.

I think what horrifies me more, the more I think about it, is not just Hamas's attacks on Israel but the fact that they have all this sophisticated infrastructure and tunnel network, and they don't put anything in place to protect their own civilians. In fact it's the opposite, the deaths of civilians is great for their propaganda. And that's without factoring in the failed rockets killing their own people. It's horrific. So there's a 'side' which is protected, because their own government actually prioritise the safety of their people, and a 'side' deliberately left there as sitting ducks and from what we hear, not even allowed to evacuate.

Hamas are not a government they are a terrorist organisation. The well being of the Palestinians is not their top priority. The Jihad of whatever.

That said I don’t know if I buy suggestions they are bombing Gaza themselves or preventing the civilians from evacuating (assuming they are even allowed to leave Gaza)

Who do you think is doing the killing to Palestinians? It's primarily the IDF by bullets. Bomb shelters (even if they had them) would be of no use. It's state sanctioned terror attacks basically.

The Palestinian Red Crescent Society have received orders from the Israelis to evacuate the hospital in Gaza City. Looks like Israel are trying to make it look like they were protecting civilians as war crime discussions have started by representatives of the UN.
How on earth can you evacuate a hospital. Apparently 400 patients are on life support.

Of course it is, but the point is that Hamas are engaged in constant hostilities, which pose a threat to Israelis - as seen most horrifically on October 7th. You can't surely think any government is going to allow that status quo to continue after the massacre that took place? Or for there to be no military response in general? Calling it terrorism doesn't make it terrorism.

A few things that this makes me think of

There will be an election and people can decide

Knowing many in the region want to wipe you out will be a factor

But mostly, which government in the region do you rate?

They think that saying "we told them to evacuate!" is enough. They (Israeli government) don't seem to realise that most of the world sees through that now. We know perfectly well they have nowhere safe to go, and many patients are simply unable to leave the hospital due to their condition.

Knowing many in the region want to wipe you out will be a factor

In electing a right wing government that carries on building settlements and fails to prevent terrorist attacks.
Isn’t there someone else who can have a go?

Most political analysts don’t give him long

But as far as systems go in the region do you think there is better?

I completely agree with this and I don't think its said often enough. Hamas has been in charge of gaza for well over a decade. It receives billions in aid. It focuses its resources on military installations & the tunnels - some of which are sophisticated enough to have air circulations systems. They leave their civilians completely unprotected - they could be in bomb shelters but they are not. They had been planning this raid 1-2 years yet put nothing in place to protect their civilians, knowing thst israel, like ANY nation on earth would retaliate after the barbarity of 7 October. They are sickening & I just don't understand why people who support Palestinians are not more disgusted with them.

Most political analysts don’t give him long

Well that’s what I thought. I know that people in Israel have protested against their government and even on here I don’t think I’ve seen one pro-Israel person speak well of him. Just wondered why he was still in charge
That said no-one in this country (that I know of) rates the Tories and we’re still stuck with them I suppose.

I’m not sure when the next election is but it’s still a democracy even if protests occur and they need to wait for the date. Unless no confidence vote if they have a similar system.

Countries have protests and still remain a democracy, eg France

Yes

Agreed....@SharonEllis

I was doing some more research into the tunnels and stumbled onto this, a bit grim.

"Defensively, Hamas will use tunnels to escape IDF observation and attack. Any Hamas military capability that survives Israel’s current air campaign will mostly be deep underground. Hamas will have already placed its leadership, fighters, headquarters, communication, weapons, and supplies like water, food, ammunition in its tunnel complexes to prepare for the ground assault by Israeli forces. The tunnels will allow fighters to move between a series of fighting positions safely and freely under massive buildings, even after the IDF drop thousand-pound bombs on them. Hamas tunnels often have generator power, air ventilation, water pipes, and stockpiles of food that will allow the group’s fighters to better withstand the most basic challenges, like normal exhaustion, that result from urban siege and isolation. Hamas leaders and fighters will use the tunnels to remain mobile to escape entire sections of the combat area when they feel they are about to be decisively attacked or surrounded. Importantly, Hamas has also dug a large portion of its tunnels under, and connected to, civilian sites like school, hospitals, and mosques in dense urban areas. Among other reasons for doing so, this is part of its defensive warfare strategy."

"Offensively, Hamas tunnels allow the group’s forces to conduct protected and surprise attacks. They will use the tunnels to infiltrate behind IDF positions to surprise Israeli forces that might not be as well prepared or equipped for combat as those spearheading the campaign, like those in logistical areas. Interconnected tunnels under urban areas will allow Hamas to move quickly between prepared attack positions with caches of sniper rifles, antitank munitions, rifle-propelled grenades, and other weapons and ammunition. Tunnels will be the vital element of Hamas’s guerrilla warfare strategy. Its fighters will form small hunter-killer teams that move underground, pop up, strike, and pop quickly back into a tunnel. Hamas also uses the tunnels to hide and move rockets. These rockets can be remotely detonated or transported to hidden launch sites at the last minute. Hamas will also have many tunnels rigged with hundreds of pounds of explosive to function as tunnel bombs under main roads and buildings that the IDF might be lured into."

"Entering tunnels presents unique tactical challenges, many of which cannot be addressed without specialized equipment. In some cases, it can be impossible to breathe without oxygen tanks in tunnels, depending on their depth and air ventilation. It can also be impossible simply to see. Most military night-vision goggles rely on some ambient light and cannot function when it is entirely absent. Any military navigation and communication equipment that relies on satellite or line-of-sight signals will not work underground. A weapon fired in compact spaces of tunnels, even a rifle, can produce a concussive effect that can physically harm the firer. A single defender can hold a narrow tunnel against a much superior force."

The entrances and probably the tunnels themselves are booby-trapped with explosives. These were first used during the Israeli offensive against Gaza in 2008-09. They were deemed successful so the project was expanded and accelerated.

Thank you @Noicant for this informative thread.