gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

So children are shot, denied medical treatment, kicked out of their homes, schools closed because Hamas? According to international law military response should be proportional, which it has NEVER been from Israel. Thankfully the world is waking up and realizing that it is state terror (which has no universal definition). This has been an ethnic cleansing since day one, and it is a clear genocide before our eyes.

Proportionality in intermational law doesn't mean Israel is only allowed to kill 1400 people in response to the 1400 people tortured, brutalised & murdered by Hamas. It means that a state is legally allowed to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives 'even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage.' The point is that Israel is subjected to endless rocket sttacks, and now Hamas attacked civilians (not military targets) and has an extensive military machine (tunnels, equipmet, rocket launchers etc) with the sole aim (read the charter, listen to the speeches) of destroying Israel. Destroying Hamas's military capability is therefore a legitimate, and proportionate aim. It certainly is not terrorism or ethnic cleansing. It is incredibly difficult be ause of the way Hamas has chosen to run gaza.

or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage.

Plus in the context of a total siege

Plus in the context of impeding delivery of humanitarian aid

And forced evacuation of 1 million people

The lead prosecutor for the ICC was at the Rafah Crossing yesterday - he said that they were investigating both Hamas and IDF actions and that there is fault on both sides

The other context of course is that all the civilians are trapped inside a 20 foot fence and cannot escape

It’s also a bit grim they way illegal settlers are still killing Palestinians in the West Bank today. Also how Gaza has decreased in size over the years because their land has been destroyed and stolen. Also how they cannot go in and out of Gaza without facing guns. This hasn’t happened overnight and Hamas came about with the help of Israel and the desperation of the Palestinians who have been suffering for decades.

I'm very aware of this, but I don't think anyone other than Israel thinks that their response falls under 'proportional'. Forced starvation and drought are war crimes, and the international community are nearly all coming out to say that Israel's response could amount to that.

I think it has to be acknowledged that Hamas is still bombarding Israel with rockets. There can’t be a ceasefire without agreement from both parties.

Israel could call a unilateral ceasefire but from a military perspective for what purpose? Those people stuck in north Gaza for whatever reason or people in hospitals are unlikely to be able to move. If I were Hamas I would use that to move people and weapons where I wanted them.

I don’t think I have heard Hamas request a ceasefire and any point. The conversation around hostage negotiations has been the release of prisoners in Israeli prisons. Not a ceasefire, not aid for civilians, not even protected zones for civilians.

Whilst the Hamas health authority is quite keen to report numbers of dead it has taken literally no steps to aid Palestinians at all. As pp pointed out, bomb shelters could have been built alongside tunnels, stockpiles of food an water etc, evacuation routes for civilians could have been planned as part of the preparations for the attack on Israel. from seeing what Hamas have managed to do I think they would have come up with a perfectly competent civilian contingency plan.

Unfortunately they are the authority in Gaza, they still have leverage, many of us are aghast at the state of Gaza, governments are reiterating to Israel that they must take care but Hamas has no interest in stopping this at all. I think they want to keep pushing until they can drag Hezbollah into the fight. Israel won’t stop until they are sure that Hamas cannot launch an attack like the one the Israelis have just experienced again. I genuinely think if Hamas asked for a ceasefire on humanitarian grounds that Israel would come under immense pressure to accede to that request.

There is literally no appetite from either Hamas or Israel for a cessation of hostilities.

I’m also a bit hmmm about the hospitals, whilst I accept that Hamas may very well be using them as bases I would imagine where Hamas leadership actually are is in the tunnels. Nice deep ones tucked away some where with minimal risk of a building collapsing ontop of them.

I just saw a heartbreaking story on the news about a girl and her friend who were purposely 'rammed' by an Israeli settler in his car when they were 4 years old. She spent a year in hospital rehabilitating, and has been left with physical disabilities for life. She's 12 now. A boy she got friendly with in hospital (who was also injured by a settler and was left in a wheelchair) was just killed a few days ago (West Bank). She said she'll never make friends again as her friends always get killed 😭💔

Thats just awful.

We killed a lot of people in WWII including when we dropped the nuclear bomb. Sometimes defending our values is worth it.

Yeah sure, if your values are barbarism.

I’m also a bit hmmm about the hospitals, whilst I accept that Hamas may very well be using them as bases I would imagine where Hamas leadership actually are is in the tunnels. Nice deep ones tucked away some where with minimal risk of a building collapsing ontop of them.

@Noicant I agree, don’t think there’s some sort of Bond villain style Hamas leadership HQ under the hospital. From various articles I read, it’s believed to be a communications HQ which would need to be closer to the surface. I’m sure Hamas leaders are tucked away safe and sound in nice clean underground fortresses with their stockpiled food and water.

Since the last few days almost every day Israel are constantly talking about Al shifa hospital. I personally think they are testing the waters to see how much opposition they get when implying they will be bombing it
There has been constant strikes around the vicinity of Al Quds and Al shifaa hospital which are full to the brim with very ill patients aswell as thousands of displaced people sheltering
This is outrageous

It is grim that generation of young people are now considered no more than suicide bombers by their leaders. If you can't see that then I can't help you to see it

All the roads around Al Shifa were destroyed on Friday night such that vehicles can no longer reach the hospital many surrounding buildings were also destroyed

Yesterday at Al Quds missiles/bombs were falling 25metres away from the main building which was damaged - broken glass in windows meant the hospital was full of smoke and dust - and chaos and panic

There is a photo of a paediatric cot-bed being pushed along a wide hospital corridor where there are so many sheltering families on either side they have to move their feet squish up so they can get through

It's not true that hospitals aren't being bombed- they regularly get a bit of light bombing It's like they are being destroyed piecemeal bit by bit - a fifth of hospitals have gone that way already

That would involve invading a sovereign nation and would start a war with Qatar. Why would they do that? They are always trying to resolve the issue of foreign nations harbouring terrorists. Amazing that this is also now Israel's fault!?

No one is talking about a war with Qatar but unless the world stops the money flowing into Hamas in Palestinian, the conflict is going to continue as Hamas get more funding via Qatar and regroup.

Yes for sure, the question is how to stop this. The international community & arab world need to step up to this. The middle east is full of faustian alliances - the qataris are quite useful as mediators for example and I think I'm right that hamas was originally supported by israel & allies as a bulwark against fatah? But the role of qatar in sheltering hamas leaders is one of the reasons why many of us were disgusted by the world cup in qatar

I just read that Hamas has an investment portfolio worth between 400 mill to 1 billion a chunk of assets in Turkey. The leader of hamas is estimated to have a net worth of between 4-5 million (in dollars).

It’s extraordinary.

This was a really interesting read about Hamas finances, particularly where they get the money from to invest their “assets” in the first place.
Paraphrased:
As with many terrorist organizations that control swaths of land or trade routes, Hamas gets funding through taxation, extortion, smuggling, kidnapping, and robbery,

Hamas oversees "anything and everything that crosses their borders" and controls the region's economic activity.

When there were smuggling tunnels dug into Egypt, Hamas taxed those. When Qatar — with Israeli and US acquiescence — was giving money to pay for salaries in the Gaza Strip, Hamas was able to tax that," Levitt said. "Any business. Any aid, humanitarian aid, the truck after truck after truck that would come in on a daily basis from Israel into Gaza could all be taxed and extorted — so the largest pot of income for Hamas recently has not been Iran; it's been controlled territory, and the ability to make money off of that: probably in the $300-400 or $450 million range."
With the funds raised from taxing and extorting residents of Gaza, Hamas officials make substantial business investments in real estate and construction corporations, as well as mining and infrastructure companies in the Middle East and North Africa

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-does-a-militant-group-like-hamas-get-its-money-2023-10?op=1&r=US&IR=T

@Noicant maybe discombobulated by the US 'representative' sorry can't remember their name meeting with Sheikh of Qatar to discuss kicking Hamas out of Qatar a few days ago?

Then the senior Hamas turning up the next day in Russia shaking Putins hand - looking for new friends?

Yeah I imagine they need somewhere to stay tbh!

I read an article in the Spectator suggesting that the Russians are most likely going to start worrying about the destabilisation of parts of Russia like Dagenstan. The hunt for Israelis through the airport and hotels is deeply disturbing. On the other hand it may be more of an opportunity to destabilise the west or have more american focus on the middle east than Europe.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-the-kremlin-will-fear-this-anti-semitic-mob-in-dagestan/

Putin may feel like having Hamas inside the tent pissing out is better then them standing outside pissing in.

Gosh, this thread really went from an unmotivated neutral info sharing thread to let's throw hate left right and centre

I’m reading the articles everyone is posting even if I don’t thank everyone individually!

Feelings run high (which I think everyone understands), everyone will have an opinion but posters are still contributing information which is great.