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Conflict in the Middle East

"Exterminate All The Brutes"! And The Genocide Continues... In Darkness

143 replies

Ohlalalalala · 27/10/2023 20:10

The bloodshed needs to stop.

Thousands of innocent people mercilessly massacred in less than 3 weeks and the genociders are still at it in brazen impunity.

You are in our hearts and thoughts. They may cut off all communication but we will never stop shouting from the rooftops:

I am with Gaza; I am with Palestine 🇵🇸

And your voices will be heard.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyv4Tc3sKH_/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

"Exterminate All The Brutes"! And The Genocide Continues... In Darkness
OP posts:
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blackboots2 · 28/10/2023 09:52

@Ohlalalalala I believe the only way to get a true picture is to consult a range of sources including credible voices from 'the other side'. I've spent my whole career in media and PR and there is not one single source which is independent. This is why I personally think it's important to examine everything critically from a range of sources.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 09:52

Growlybear83 · 28/10/2023 01:32

I don't understand how supposedly civilised nations can be sitting back and watching this happen. The UK is always one of the first countries to get involved in international conflicts so why is nothing being done to try to stop so many innocent lives being lost. I'm ashamed to be British.

I said this on the other thread last night before it got deleted (which I am frustrated about - I don't know the reason for that or what happened after I went to bed).

What are the UK supposed to do to stop the war at this point. A war which the US seems to be giving unconditional support for (largely because of their own geopolitical interests in the wider region).

The UK are actually pretty limited. We have a shared strategic defence policy with the US and Israel which we can only distance ourselves from to a certain extent. Our economic and intelligence ties mean we are locked in to a degree.

BUT I do stress the level of behind the scenes diplomacy that is going on.

Last night I quoted from a long twitter thread about the geopolitics involves. I might try and find it again as it was really useful and balanced.

The essence of it was, much of this situation is down to where Netanyhu had positioned himself politically and the attack by Hamas demonstrated political failure. He then had a choice of resignation or doubling down and vowing to effectively 'wipe out the problem'. The issue with this, is it's not a war he can actually win. He can't get complete victory over Hamas because you can't kill ideas, you can only kill people.

If he displaces Palestinians into Egypt it just shifts the problems and makes them worse. If he goes in too hard he risks widening the conflict. And there's a chance he can do that without dragging in the US too. The geopolitical considerations of other countries mean they can not ignore what he's doing. But the reality is most want de-escalation but that can't happen whilst Netanyhu has still to deliver some goal or objective.

At that point it's going to require significant diplomacy. Who is going to be able to do that? It can't be the US. It has to be a third party sympathetic enough to Israel and the US but also sympathetic and with decent enough relations with other countries.

What happened last night at the UN was significant. It might not seem it, but it was.

The UK broke rank and didn't support Israel and the US over the humanitarian pause. That's a massive thing. The UK doesn't break rank with the US.

People are saying it's appalling we didn't support the motion. That's not true. That's not how politics work. Everyone in diplomatic circles will understand what the UK did last night and that's important.

It was recognition that Israel's action are deeply problematic in terms of proportionality and humanitarian considerations. It was recognition that the government can not ignore the level of public discomfort and unrest with the situation in Gaza. There are domestic security considerations with this.

It's a recognition that British understanding of human rights abuses has reached the threshold where we can't just say ',yep crack on Israel'.

We aren't saying this directly and loudly - but an abstention is not a neutral act either. It's a batsignal calling for diplomacy between relevant parties. It's an explicit message to the US and Israel we are not happy.

This needs some context too.

After the hospital bombing, Biden's meeting with Egyptian and Arab leaders was cancelled. It was impossible for them to go ahead. They needed (for their own domestic considerations) to be seen to be doing something and making a statement. But they still had a massive need to hold those talks.

Magically a very hasty trip to Israel and Egypt was arrived for Rishi Sunak. This wasn't on the cards before the bombing. Sunak went and had a meeting with Netanyhu and did the required diplomatic speak. And then he went directly to Egypt.

Less than 24 hrs after that meeting two US hostages were released by Hamas and very limited aid was allowed (by the required joint agreement of Israel and Egypt) into Gaza. Now this was all tokenism really but that still matters. And someone has to be facilitating these behind the scenes diplomatic efforts.

The UK issue is we have set criteria which we define as war crimes and human rights abuses. Israel's argument that it has a right to defend itself looks like it's crossing the threshold from defence action into disproportionate levels of aggression which match with UK understanding of war crimes and human rights abuses. This line is deeply political and deeply problematic. The UK itself has arguably crossed this line in the past - and not without consequences.

The underlying issue is when you cross that line it undermines stated objectives relating to increasing the safety and security of your own people and the aggression can be somewhat self defeating.

It's important to note at this point that something like 50% of Israeli are concerned at the way Netanyhu has responded to the crisis. This isn't an anti Jewish or anti Israeli point. It's one over the leadership of Netanyhu himself.

By all accounts Biden doesn't get on with Netanyhu either but is supporting due to the USs own strategic agenda. But there will be significant tension there.

The pressure on Netanyhu is enormous. To say that the UK government isn't doing anything is wrong. We are doing a gradual creep which might not look like much to untrained eyes but in diplomatic terms is massive. Even saying in the last couple of days about getting UK citizens out of Gaza quite loudly was a diplomatic reminder to the US and Israel.

Keep watching. Understand the geopolitics involved and how far and fast the UK can push.

We aren't just sitting watching even if that is how it feels.

Things ARE being done. It's just that international diplomacy and geopolitics sucks.

TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 09:56

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Anything you can do is better than nothing.

If you have instagram keep sharing stories coming from Gaza or even those that aren’t eg the last posts from journalists on the ground shared their last posts last night.

If you have twitter - you can ask elon musk to start the star communication thing he started for ukraine. Sorry not on twitter but not sure of the exact name.

Definitely write to your mp. Sign petitions.

Show your support, go on a demonstration. You don’t need to go to whole thing just go and show your support.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 09:57

There is no genocide going on. These threads are beyond ridiculous and mumsnet really needs to do something about them.

TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 09:58

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

My DH saw them in Liverpool street and his response was its not like we are going to see them here.

TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 09:59

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 09:57

There is no genocide going on. These threads are beyond ridiculous and mumsnet really needs to do something about them.

7000 people in a restricted space and no where to go is not a genocide!! That’s fact denial.

FoodCentre · 28/10/2023 10:03

My DH saw them in Liverpool street and his response was its not like we are going to see them here.

Wow he must be the first person to have thought that🙄

The posters are there for the same reason people are starting threads on here, protesting, making social media posts, talking about it with friends. Because they care and want others to care.

Roste · 28/10/2023 10:06

I see no reason why the posters shouldn’t be there? Let people be and show their support for innocent civilians on either ‘side’.

Roste · 28/10/2023 10:06

I see no reason why the posters shouldn’t be there? Let people be and show their support for innocent civilians on either ‘side’.

TutuDesi · 28/10/2023 10:06

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/28/thousands-of-gaza-workers-go-missing-in-israel-amid-wartime-mass-arrests
The Minister of Labour for the Palestinian Authority estimated that about 4,500 workers are unaccounted for and are believed to have been detained by Israeli forces. Israeli media outlet N12 reported that 4,000 Palestinians from Gaza were being interrogated in Israeli holding facilities over their possible involvement in the attack.
Alongside Gaza workers, Israeli forces have detained more than 1,450 Palestinian residents of the West Bank since October 7, according to estimates by the Palestinian Prisoners Society.
The arrests have taken place against a backdrop of laws and amendments that human rights organisations say amount to punitive measures.
On October 18, the Israeli parliament, known as the Knesset, approved a temporary plan that strips Palestinian prisoners of the right to at least 4.5 square metres of space, enabling cells that used to hold five people to hold more than twice as many.
According to Physicians for Human Rights Israel (PHRI), authorities also disconnected access to power and water supplies, limited the number of meals per day, restricted prisoners to their cells and prevented access to medical clinics and visits by legal representatives and other officials. At least two prisoners have died while in custody since the beginning of the latest round of hostilities.

Can’t say what this sort of police state action reminds me of without getting banned.

Israel secretly detaining thousands of missing Gaza workers: Rights groups

Israel has so far refused to release information about Gaza workers who have disappeared, human rights groups say.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/28/thousands-of-gaza-workers-go-missing-in-israel-amid-wartime-mass-arrests

TutuDesi · 28/10/2023 10:11

Similar to many of us who are Jewish in the U.K., thousands of Jewish peace activists in NYC are also protesting.
https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1718055354049724430?

"Exterminate All The Brutes"! And The Genocide Continues... In Darkness
crumblingschools · 28/10/2023 10:13

@Alltheprettyseahorses what would you call it then?

TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 10:14

TutuDesi · 28/10/2023 10:11

Similar to many of us who are Jewish in the U.K., thousands of Jewish peace activists in NYC are also protesting.
https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1718055354049724430?

Honestly you have no idea how much people appreciate this.

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 10:16

Alltheprettyseahorses· Today 09:57

There is no genocide going on.

Yes, keep repeating that, if you like. Some green people will probably believe you.

Meanwhile, the Red Cross, UN, Amnesty etc international lawyers, who know and understand the meaning and definition say that it is genocide. Included in that number are some prominent Jewish lawyers, such as Geoffrey Bindman.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/10/2023 10:19

blackboots2 · 28/10/2023 09:52

@Ohlalalalala I believe the only way to get a true picture is to consult a range of sources including credible voices from 'the other side'. I've spent my whole career in media and PR and there is not one single source which is independent. This is why I personally think it's important to examine everything critically from a range of sources.

Absolutely.

Critical reading is the first thing that goes in a conflict like this. Emotions take over, understandably, and reason goes to fuck.

Gardenowl · 28/10/2023 10:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Oh for fuck's sake. Do you not get tired of this. Yes, what happened to Israel was horrible but what Israel has done is 10 times worse they are obliterating entire people. Shame on Israel for doing this and shame on you for justifying it. All human lives should be treated equal. I will cry equally for both Israeli and Palestinian children.

Ohlalalalala · 28/10/2023 10:23

TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 09:56

Anything you can do is better than nothing.

If you have instagram keep sharing stories coming from Gaza or even those that aren’t eg the last posts from journalists on the ground shared their last posts last night.

If you have twitter - you can ask elon musk to start the star communication thing he started for ukraine. Sorry not on twitter but not sure of the exact name.

Definitely write to your mp. Sign petitions.

Show your support, go on a demonstration. You don’t need to go to whole thing just go and show your support.

This.
Thank you.
🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 10:23

It's entirely possible to have 100% sympathy for the murdered Israeli people, as well as the Palestinian people who have been killed by Israel.

A plague on both their houses.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 10:25

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 10:16

Alltheprettyseahorses· Today 09:57

There is no genocide going on.

Yes, keep repeating that, if you like. Some green people will probably believe you.

Meanwhile, the Red Cross, UN, Amnesty etc international lawyers, who know and understand the meaning and definition say that it is genocide. Included in that number are some prominent Jewish lawyers, such as Geoffrey Bindman.

Was there not a genocide perpetrated by Hamas against Israel by that measure? Amnesty is totally discredited anyway and the other orgs have been fairly silent on actual genocides being committed in China and Myanmar.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 10:27

Gardenowl · 28/10/2023 10:20

Oh for fuck's sake. Do you not get tired of this. Yes, what happened to Israel was horrible but what Israel has done is 10 times worse they are obliterating entire people. Shame on Israel for doing this and shame on you for justifying it. All human lives should be treated equal. I will cry equally for both Israeli and Palestinian children.

Is this for real? A targeted attempt to get rid of a political terrorist group is worse than the acts that terrorist group committed? This is just beyond ridiculous now.

Draconis · 28/10/2023 10:29

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 10:23

It's entirely possible to have 100% sympathy for the murdered Israeli people, as well as the Palestinian people who have been killed by Israel.

A plague on both their houses.

Totally agree. Most people who are appalled and upset at innocent people being massacred are people who are generally against massacres, regardless of the victims.
Do we need to keep adding to our messages that we are also horrified and saddened by Israeli lives being taken?
What we are seeing now in Gaza is state sponsored genocide. Which is as horrific as it gets.

Gardenowl · 28/10/2023 10:29

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 10:25

Was there not a genocide perpetrated by Hamas against Israel by that measure? Amnesty is totally discredited anyway and the other orgs have been fairly silent on actual genocides being committed in China and Myanmar.

I am just getting so sick of all the propaganda. It doesn't matter which walk of life you are from or how strong your credentials- if you do not support Israel you are completely discredited - amnesty or any other human rights organisation for peace are idiots because they put their lives and careers on line and go work in the troubled areas. Where as anyone who supports Israel's actions from a comfortable armchair are the most credit worthy people.

Ostryga · 28/10/2023 10:29

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 10:27

Is this for real? A targeted attempt to get rid of a political terrorist group is worse than the acts that terrorist group committed? This is just beyond ridiculous now.

Oh come off it. It’s not a targeted attack, it’s an indiscriminate ethnic cleansing which is fuelled by propaganda that people are falling for.

No one in their right mind can support Israel, and if you do you will go down in history as being on the wrong side.

Ohlalalalala · 28/10/2023 10:33

TutuDesi · 28/10/2023 10:11

Similar to many of us who are Jewish in the U.K., thousands of Jewish peace activists in NYC are also protesting.
https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1718055354049724430?

Thank you. The world should hear more about you as many are trying to stop any criticism of Israel by accusing them of antisemitism, even though some of the most prominent critical voices are Jewish ones like Chomsky and Pappé. Many many Jewish and/ or Israelis are speaking out against the genocide.

OP posts:
TakeMe2Insanity · 28/10/2023 10:35

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/10/2023 10:27

Is this for real? A targeted attempt to get rid of a political terrorist group is worse than the acts that terrorist group committed? This is just beyond ridiculous now.

But it’s not targeted. Even members of the Israeli government have said the objective is not accuracy but destruction.

Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, a spokesman for the Israeli military, has said that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,”

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/10/23/the-telegraph-israel-abandons-precision-bombing-in-favour-of-damage-and-destruction/amp/

The Telegraph: Israel abandons precision bombing in favour of ‘damage and destruction’ - Modern Diplomacy

Israel’s warning that its air war on the Gaza Strip has abandoned precision in favour of “destruction” is an ominous sign civilian losses

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/10/23/the-telegraph-israel-abandons-precision-bombing-in-favour-of-damage-and-destruction/amp/