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Conflict in the Middle East

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

488 replies

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 15:49

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

I'm sorry for the DM link. I want to know what is meant by Israel 'ceasing responsibility for life' means though. I don't understand.

Israeli defence minister reveals plans for 'three-phase war' in Gaza

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant told Israeli lawmakers that the IDF expects to start its three-phase war with airstrikes and ground maneuvers, before defeating Hamas pockets of resistance

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

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Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 17:40

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No it’s just a threat exposing your true nature and that of “your side”. the side of apartheid and genocide.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:40

mushti · 21/10/2023 17:27

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jerusalem_Post

The Jerusalem Post is a broadsheet newspaper based in Jerusalem, founded in 1932 during the British Mandate of Palestine by Gershon Agron as The Palestine Post. In 1950, it changed its name to The Jerusalem Post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Philharmonic_Orchestra

The Israel Philharmonic Orchestra was founded as the Palestine Symphony Orchestra by violinist Bronisław Huberman in 1936, at a time of the dismissal of many Jewish musicians from European orchestras.[1] Its inaugural concert took place in Tel Aviv on December 26, 1936, conducted by Arturo Toscanini. Its first principal conductor was William Steinberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Electric_Corporation

In 1923, Rutenberg founded the Palestine Electric Corporation, Limited[5] which was granted the "Jordan Concession". Rutenberg merged Jaffa Electric Company into that company, which in 1961 was renamed the Israel Electric Corporation Ltd.

My mother's step-father was a Palestinian; a Jew who was born in and lived in Tel Aviv.

You'll not find any contemporaneous documents referring to the Palestinian People (referring to the Arabs). Not until the 1960's.

As Golda Meir put it (interview, 1970, Thames TV)

"Golda Meir: "When were Palestinians born? What was all of this area before the First World War when Britain got the Mandate over Palestine? What was Palestine, then? Palestine was then the area between the Mediterranean and the Iraqian border. East and West Bank was Palestine. I am a Palestinian, from 1921 and 1948, I carried a Palestinian passport. There was no such thing in this area as Jews, and Arabs, and Palestinians, There were Jews and Arabs.

Interviewer: "You deny that there was a Palestine Arab people before, but there is now a Palestine liberation movement, and the history of liberation movements are that they grow, won't this one grow and become in the end in fact your biggest enemy?"

Golda Meir: "I don't say there are no Palestinians, but I say there is no such thing as a distinct Palestinian people."[3]

- listen to her from about 3 minutes in.

Ok, none of this shows that “Until 1948, the word "Palestinian" applied exclusively to the Jewish inhabitants of the area”

All these show is that the Jewish people in the area were referred to as Palestinians. It doesn’t show exclusion of people who were also in the area but were Christians, Muslims, and other religions from being referred to as Palestinians.

One newspaper, one orchestra and one company that is all you have linked. The newspaper- the Palestine Post was referring to a region, the mandate, not Jewish people as its readers were mostly British soldiers and German immigrants according to Wiki.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:41

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Umm, excuse me? Kinda rude.

No, you see I'm not from Hebron. My grandparents were. They were ethnically cleansed from the city in 1929. By Arabs.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:42

ketchup07070 · 21/10/2023 17:16

That's interesting, but the BBC article states 60% of Israel's water is supplied by the West Bank's mountain aquifer in addition to the sea of Galilee. It also states the 67 war gave Israel exclusive control of waters of the West Bank, and that 80% of the aquifer's flow is diverted to settlements and to Israel. It's from 2010 so perhaps you will know if the situation has changed? I'll link it. as it poses an interesting point. If Israel finds providing water to Gaza a burden, why not give full control of water in the west bank to the west bank, so they can supply Gaza?Obstacles to Arab-Israeli peace: Water - BBC News

There is a thread on this that starts with the Amnesty International’s report on Israel’s Water Occupation.

Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 17:44

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:41

Umm, excuse me? Kinda rude.

No, you see I'm not from Hebron. My grandparents were. They were ethnically cleansed from the city in 1929. By Arabs.

Ah ok, so in exchange you ethnically cleansed back? You’ve also upped the stakes with the apartheid and current genocide, I’ve got to hand it you. Bravo 👏🏼

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:44

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:27

Its changed a lot. Most of israels water is from desalination and reclaimed sewage (for agriculture). In fact, Israel has a surplus of water due to advances in technology. It can and does supply gaza with as much water as it needs. Until gaza decided to commit a massacre and take hostages

For the wb to supply water to gaza (not that they've actually offered- its not like the PA is crying over hamas), they'd have to cross Israel. Not exactly a popular proposition right now.

Take a look at the water occupation thread. Due to a 1967 military order, Israel controls all water sources in the Palestinian Occupied Territories, so West Bank isn’t even allowed to control its own water. Which is why much of it is being redirected to Israeli settlements at the expense of Palestinian villages.

SomeCatFromJapan · 21/10/2023 17:48

Ah ok, so in exchange you ethnically cleansed back? You’ve also upped the stakes with the apartheid and current genocide, I’ve got to hand it you. Bravo

Who is the "you" here? We keep being told, correctly, that Palestinians/Gazans are not synonymous with Hamas so why are you doing that in reverse?
Your personal attacks are actually quite disturbing, however I won't report them as I think it's good that people see what's being said.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:49

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Please don’t use personal attacks. Meshigenus has been great to discuss different viewpoints with. If you can’t discuss civilly, please leave the thread.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 17:50

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You Really should apologise to @Meshigenus for that, @Desertrose2023.

Uncalled for.

Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 17:51

SomeCatFromJapan · 21/10/2023 17:48

Ah ok, so in exchange you ethnically cleansed back? You’ve also upped the stakes with the apartheid and current genocide, I’ve got to hand it you. Bravo

Who is the "you" here? We keep being told, correctly, that Palestinians/Gazans are not synonymous with Hamas so why are you doing that in reverse?
Your personal attacks are actually quite disturbing, however I won't report them as I think it's good that people see what's being said.

The poster you are defending stated that her “side” had better weapons and wasn’t afraid to use them and that my side was going to suffer more. I think it’s fairly clear what they are synonymous with.

Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 17:53

That’s a pretty personal attack in my view and unnecessary threatening.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 17:54

Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 17:51

The poster you are defending stated that her “side” had better weapons and wasn’t afraid to use them and that my side was going to suffer more. I think it’s fairly clear what they are synonymous with.

@Desertrose2023, what @SomeCatFromJapan quoted was your comments to @Meshigenus who didn't say what you just accused them of.

Another thing you should apologise for.

SomeCatFromJapan · 21/10/2023 17:54

The poster you are defending stated that her “side” had better weapons and wasn’t afraid to use them and that my side was going to suffer more. I think it’s fairly clear what they are synonymous with.

It was in context within a discussion about a possible armed conflict with Hezbollah, and in response to what you had said.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:56

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:29

So did my grandparents imagine being ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929? Narrowly missing being massacred like their neighbours.
They obviously missed the memo that they were loved 😍

Wasn’t that massacre of the helpless, unarmed Jewish community in Hebron part of the larger 1929 Palestine Riots over Temple Mont and the Wall? I think it left what, around 150 dead on both sides?

I’m glad your grandparents survived. As I’ve said on other threads, all the fears of safety for Jewish, Muslim and Christian communities there are all valid and based in actual massacres.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:57

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I'm sorry. However much this is tribal on a thread like this but as an israeli I do not agree with you. That's an awful thing to say. Innocent people are being hurt here and this whole thing has the potential to ignite the whole region.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 17:57

SomeCatFromJapan · 21/10/2023 17:54

The poster you are defending stated that her “side” had better weapons and wasn’t afraid to use them and that my side was going to suffer more. I think it’s fairly clear what they are synonymous with.

It was in context within a discussion about a possible armed conflict with Hezbollah, and in response to what you had said.

It wasn't even Meshigenus who said anyway.

mushti · 21/10/2023 17:57

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 17:37

In terms of terminology: Until 1948, the word "Palestinian" applied exclusively to the Jewish inhabitants of the area

That doesn’t make any sense. Why would Palestinian only apply to the Jews living in the area known as Palestine?

Because the Arabs thought of themselves as first and foremost as Arabs, not as Palestinians.

The idea of nationhood is quite western; all the Arab countries that exist today were created by the British and the French under the Sykes-picot agreement after the First World War: syria, Iraq, Lebanon, (then in 1922, Jordan). The idea of pan-Arab nationalism (as opposed to nation states) took a long time to fade away, right up until Sadat Hussein’s Ba’ath party (the same political movement to which Egyptian president Nasser belonged) was destroyed by the USA quite recently.

SomeCatFromJapan · 21/10/2023 17:58

It wasn't even Meshigenus who said anyway.

Sorry, neither it was, I apologise for that error.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 18:01

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:57

I'm sorry. However much this is tribal on a thread like this but as an israeli I do not agree with you. That's an awful thing to say. Innocent people are being hurt here and this whole thing has the potential to ignite the whole region.

Spot on. De-escalation and a cease fire is needed so calmer heads can sort out an agreement. So many innocent lives have been cut short- even babies and children.

Desertrose2023 · 21/10/2023 18:02

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 17:49

Please don’t use personal attacks. Meshigenus has been great to discuss different viewpoints with. If you can’t discuss civilly, please leave the thread.

you’re right, I misread @mushti comment for @Meshigenus and reacted badly so I apologize for that.

mushti · 21/10/2023 18:03

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WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 18:03

Because the Arabs thought of themselves as first and foremost as Arabs, not as Palestinians
I don’t agree with this. I’ve watched many interviews with survivors of the nakba and they all think of themselves as Palestinians, they talk about it as part of their identity and birth right. One that really resonated with me was Edward Said.

mushti · 21/10/2023 18:04

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 18:03

Because the Arabs thought of themselves as first and foremost as Arabs, not as Palestinians
I don’t agree with this. I’ve watched many interviews with survivors of the nakba and they all think of themselves as Palestinians, they talk about it as part of their identity and birth right. One that really resonated with me was Edward Said.

Yes, they do now. But they didn’t in 1948.

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 18:06

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 17:57

I'm sorry. However much this is tribal on a thread like this but as an israeli I do not agree with you. That's an awful thing to say. Innocent people are being hurt here and this whole thing has the potential to ignite the whole region.

Thank you. Agreed. The posts on here about water and other issues have been quite educational
That comment is very inflammatory

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 18:07

Does it even matter what their identity was in 1948? Does it matter if the displacement and defeat is what shaped it?
The point is that the Palestinians now have a strong national identity. Whether it was formed 100 years ago or 20 years ago doesn't make it any more or less legitimate.