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Conflict in the Middle East

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

488 replies

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 15:49

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

I'm sorry for the DM link. I want to know what is meant by Israel 'ceasing responsibility for life' means though. I don't understand.

Israeli defence minister reveals plans for 'three-phase war' in Gaza

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant told Israeli lawmakers that the IDF expects to start its three-phase war with airstrikes and ground maneuvers, before defeating Hamas pockets of resistance

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

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43
Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 13:44

Sure, maybe not everyone.
But would have been nice for something to have been done instead of importing RPGs. That's the point

Would if of been possible though? To smuggle the parts needed and build in new infrastructure with no one noticing?

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 13:49

They could supply each other, releasing Israel from responsibility

I assume they can’t since they don’t. I doubt Israel would allow it anyway. They don’t want to be released from responsibility, they want to keep the Palestinian Territories under their control. They would argue their safety depends on it.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 14:06

ketchup07070 · 21/10/2023 13:34

Does neither Gaza or West Bank have any water sources? They could supply each other, releasing Israel from responsibility.

They would require a solar powered desalination plant in West Bank.

These complicated talks have been ongoing since well before this latest conflict, so it's not straightforward.

That's not to say its not in the best interests of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. It is.

"There's a long history of, for example, border crossings into Gaza, being used as a lever to try to get political developments into a certain direction. From a very cynical perspective, Israel has an interest in not increasing desperation in Palestinian territories because that would be a huge challenge to Israeli security."

  • Benjamin Pohl, head of Adelphi's climate diplomacy and security programme

7th October 2023 will have massively impacted on these discussions, so the problem still comes back to solving the security issue in order to begin the long process of reaching a political settlement.

Get Hamas out of the way, solve the security issues and ensure there's regime change in Gaza.

Of course, it's more complicated than that, but you get the gist.

ketchup07070 · 21/10/2023 14:08

@DownNative But the West Bank has the river Jordan?

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 14:08

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 13:40

Why do you think I wouldn't agree that its disgusting???
I saw that and thought it was terrible too!!

No excuse and totally outrageous.

I am very scared about what's happening in the west bank. Things were bad before but since this crazy government came into power with fascist right wing racist elements, its got even worse.

In fact, not only is it awful what those settlers and soldiers did on its own but they're traitors to israel because this kind of stuff could cause the west bank to explode.

Thank you. I am glad you agree on this. As you are israeli I am asking as a genuine question is your view point on this the majority view? Or minority or let's say 50/50
Also how much power do the ordinary Israelis have in stopping this?

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 14:09

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 13:49

They could supply each other, releasing Israel from responsibility

I assume they can’t since they don’t. I doubt Israel would allow it anyway. They don’t want to be released from responsibility, they want to keep the Palestinian Territories under their control. They would argue their safety depends on it.

Edited

To be fair, Hamas did a pretty good job of strengthing that argument....

And let's remember that every inch of sinai was returned to Egypt in exchange for peace and that included dismantling settlements which were built there.

And israel offered the Palestinians land many times previously.

So it's not as simple as 'oh, nasty israel just wants land'

ketchup07070 · 21/10/2023 14:11

@Meshigenus I'm sorry. I was just asking why the West Bank can not supply water to Gaza, e.g. from the river Jordan, as it is Palestinian territory/ I also wondered if there were other fresh water sources in Gaza or West Bank.

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 14:37

And israel offered the Palestinians land many times previously

Israel took large chunks of the Palestinian territories during the Six Day War. If it offered to give some back then that’s good but I’m not sure when?

(please don’t ask me to Google it. I’m not going to)

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 14:45

@Parkingt111
I can't speak for all Israelis as there are some many groups: Israeli arabs - who are Palestinians but citizens of Israel, Israeli secular Jews, Israeli orthodox Jews, Israeli ultra orthdox and then some.

I obviously, like all of us, am in a bit of an echo chamber. Most of my friends and family think like me but I don't think we represent the whole country.

There is no doubt that the whole country has moved to the right and become more nationalist. This trend started with the hamas attacks in the 90s and then intensified after the Second Intifada.

For example, Meretz - the party I vote for - considered left of centre. In 1992 they got nearly 10% of the vote. In 2022, they got about 3% and didn't even make it into parliatment. The Labour party, more centre left, got 35% of the vote in 1992 and nearly 4% in 2022!!!

I did become hopeful during the protests this past year on the judicial coup. I believe that the occupation is intrinsically tied up with this undemocratic move. You can't have a democracy and an occupation - the two are contradictory at the most basic level. There were voices making this connection (including mine!). A minority, admittedly, but that connection was growing. I'll honestly say though is that a lot Israelis don't care either way regarding the occupation of the west bank or what's happening in the gaza strip. I think they kind of grown immune, especially since the second intifada and all the insanity that went on then. Now, you can live in Tel Aviv in a comfortable bubble and forget about what is happening 50 or 60 km away. Until you have to face it though...

I have a cousin who used to be quite right wing. He's super patriotic and was an officer in the army. Then he found himself patrolling around the Palestinian territories, chasing kids throwing rocks. He's a decent and honest person - and he thought WTF and realised how messed up this is and became very left. He influenced me a lot actually in understanding the unfairness and injustice of this situation and even if I defend other things about Israel, the occupation is wrong and needs to end and even if there's not going to be a Palestinian state tomorrow, Israel should not be moving its civillian population on to territory which is under military rule for some and Israeli civil rule for others.

I'll be honest, since the attack of 7/10, i have heard a lot of calls for revenge and dehumanizing of Palestinians, especially Gazans. I can understand it. In times of war, it's so easy to dehumanise the other side and Israelis are in a lot of pain right now. In our era of 24/7 news and social media, the horror stories are constant and they are really really horrifying. The funerals are constant. There are still hundreds of bodies to identify because they were tortured and desecrated and burnt to the point they can't be identified. When I hear dehumanising language, i do push back against it as we need to constantly remind ourselves that despite the pain inflicted on us, the Gazans are suffering too and no one is going to wipe anyone out.

So this is a long answer to your question and probably not a very clear one - I had to think things through in my head before writing as I don't have much clarity of vision and I am torn between different emotions.

Perhaps the events of the last 2 awful weeks will change something. Palestinians will accept they're not going to get rid of Israel and if they try it works out badly for them everytime. Israelis need to accept that 2 million Gazans in the Gaza strip will not just disappear and that a political solution is needed, not just for the west bank for gaza as well - and that the status quo won't go on forever. But I fear that Israel will go more to the right, more nationalistic and the same for the Palestinians - that the divide will become all the bigger.

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 14:48

Okaay so I did Google it after all.

According to that ever reliable source of information, Wikipedia, when Israel gave land back to Egypt it also offered to give Golan back to the Palestinians , but not Gaza or the West Bank?

Perhaps if it had then the Palestinians would not have become so radicalised? Then again who’s to say. I’m sure some of them consider all of Palestine theirs not just the occupied territories.

Some actions by Israel seem a bit antagonistic though. I’m thinking of the settlements in the West Bank here.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 14:55

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 14:37

And israel offered the Palestinians land many times previously

Israel took large chunks of the Palestinian territories during the Six Day War. If it offered to give some back then that’s good but I’m not sure when?

(please don’t ask me to Google it. I’m not going to)

What do you mean large chunks of Palestinian territory? Was there a Palestinian state established? Or was the land taken from Egypt and Jordan respectively after they attacked Israel in 1967?

(to save you googling, the answer is that, no, Egypt and Jordan did not establish a Palestinian state - because they never wanted one - so no Palestinian territories were taken chunks out of - they were parts of Egypt and Jordan respectively)

There were previous offers too. Even back in 1967, the Arab League declared the 'Three Nos of Khartoum' (No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.) in response to Israeli overtures for peace for the land captured. Egypt was later expelled from the Arab League in 1979 for agreeing to peace with israel in exchange for the Sinai peninsula.

And, yes, Ehud Olmert in 2008 offered the Palestinians all of gaza and 94% of the West bank with land swap for land in Israel for the other 6% (in order to keep the large settlement blocs intact). Guess who said no? (to save you googling, it was the Palestinians).

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 14:58

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 14:48

Okaay so I did Google it after all.

According to that ever reliable source of information, Wikipedia, when Israel gave land back to Egypt it also offered to give Golan back to the Palestinians , but not Gaza or the West Bank?

Perhaps if it had then the Palestinians would not have become so radicalised? Then again who’s to say. I’m sure some of them consider all of Palestine theirs not just the occupied territories.

Some actions by Israel seem a bit antagonistic though. I’m thinking of the settlements in the West Bank here.

Edited

Not sure what your google source is but the Golan Heights belonged to Syria. It was actually never part of mandatory Palestine and would never have been offered to the Palestinians (nor have they ever claimed it).

As I told you above, back in the 70s, before the whole settlement craziness started, Israel approached arab states to exchange land for peace but was told a most certain no. No one was talking about a palestinina state at that point, by the way, not even the Palestinians. That idea came later when Egypt and Jordan gave up their claims on Palestine. The Palestinians were still convinced that they could destroy Israel. The PLO only recognised Israel during the Oslo peace talks in the 90s.

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 15:12

Not sure what your google source

As I said Wikipedia - that’s Google for you.

If Golan belonged to Syria then when land did Israel offer to return to the Palestinians? You mention the 70s but The Six Day War happened in the 60s so the Palestinian territories were already occupied by that point.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 15:21

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 15:12

Not sure what your google source

As I said Wikipedia - that’s Google for you.

If Golan belonged to Syria then when land did Israel offer to return to the Palestinians? You mention the 70s but The Six Day War happened in the 60s so the Palestinian territories were already occupied by that point.

But that's teh point - they weren't Palestinian, it was Jordan and Egypt who occupied them 1948-1967. The idea of a Palestinian state is one of the last few decades. The Arab armies did not invade Israel in 1948 to establish a Palestinian state, their plan was to carve up Palestine between them. For example, Jordan held on to the West Bank and annexed it.

Israel had no one to offer the territories to at that point - the Arab league came up with the three nos of khartoum to make it clear to israel that land for peace was not an option, that they did not accept even Israel's right to exist.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 15:24

There's a famous quote attributed to Moshe Dayyan (a celebrated Israeli general during the six day war) that he was "waiting for a telephone call" from the Arab leaders. They naively believed that now they could exchange land for peace. It didn't happen, there was no phone call.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 15:28

ketchup07070 · 21/10/2023 14:08

@DownNative But the West Bank has the river Jordan?

Swim with caution, don't boat in areas with scum, keep pets away and....don't drink the water.

The Jordan River is not what it used to be. Once fast flowing....now the opposite.

So, desalination plants required.

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 15:30

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 14:45

@Parkingt111
I can't speak for all Israelis as there are some many groups: Israeli arabs - who are Palestinians but citizens of Israel, Israeli secular Jews, Israeli orthodox Jews, Israeli ultra orthdox and then some.

I obviously, like all of us, am in a bit of an echo chamber. Most of my friends and family think like me but I don't think we represent the whole country.

There is no doubt that the whole country has moved to the right and become more nationalist. This trend started with the hamas attacks in the 90s and then intensified after the Second Intifada.

For example, Meretz - the party I vote for - considered left of centre. In 1992 they got nearly 10% of the vote. In 2022, they got about 3% and didn't even make it into parliatment. The Labour party, more centre left, got 35% of the vote in 1992 and nearly 4% in 2022!!!

I did become hopeful during the protests this past year on the judicial coup. I believe that the occupation is intrinsically tied up with this undemocratic move. You can't have a democracy and an occupation - the two are contradictory at the most basic level. There were voices making this connection (including mine!). A minority, admittedly, but that connection was growing. I'll honestly say though is that a lot Israelis don't care either way regarding the occupation of the west bank or what's happening in the gaza strip. I think they kind of grown immune, especially since the second intifada and all the insanity that went on then. Now, you can live in Tel Aviv in a comfortable bubble and forget about what is happening 50 or 60 km away. Until you have to face it though...

I have a cousin who used to be quite right wing. He's super patriotic and was an officer in the army. Then he found himself patrolling around the Palestinian territories, chasing kids throwing rocks. He's a decent and honest person - and he thought WTF and realised how messed up this is and became very left. He influenced me a lot actually in understanding the unfairness and injustice of this situation and even if I defend other things about Israel, the occupation is wrong and needs to end and even if there's not going to be a Palestinian state tomorrow, Israel should not be moving its civillian population on to territory which is under military rule for some and Israeli civil rule for others.

I'll be honest, since the attack of 7/10, i have heard a lot of calls for revenge and dehumanizing of Palestinians, especially Gazans. I can understand it. In times of war, it's so easy to dehumanise the other side and Israelis are in a lot of pain right now. In our era of 24/7 news and social media, the horror stories are constant and they are really really horrifying. The funerals are constant. There are still hundreds of bodies to identify because they were tortured and desecrated and burnt to the point they can't be identified. When I hear dehumanising language, i do push back against it as we need to constantly remind ourselves that despite the pain inflicted on us, the Gazans are suffering too and no one is going to wipe anyone out.

So this is a long answer to your question and probably not a very clear one - I had to think things through in my head before writing as I don't have much clarity of vision and I am torn between different emotions.

Perhaps the events of the last 2 awful weeks will change something. Palestinians will accept they're not going to get rid of Israel and if they try it works out badly for them everytime. Israelis need to accept that 2 million Gazans in the Gaza strip will not just disappear and that a political solution is needed, not just for the west bank for gaza as well - and that the status quo won't go on forever. But I fear that Israel will go more to the right, more nationalistic and the same for the Palestinians - that the divide will become all the bigger.

I would like to thank you for your honest and heartfelt reply. It has been quite eye opening to see the situation from the perspective of an Israeli who can see the wrongs of their government

Like you I also see both sides going more to the right but who knows. Maybe some peace solution can eventually be reached for the prosperity of all people in the region

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 15:52

But that's teh point - they weren't Palestinian, it was Jordan and Egypt who occupied them 1948-1967. The idea of a Palestinian state is one of the last few decades. The Arab armies did not invade Israel in 1948 to establish a Palestinian state, their plan was to carve up Palestine between them. For example, Jordan held on to the West Bank and annexed it.

Israel had no one to offer the territories to at that point - the Arab league came up with the three nos of khartoum to make it clear to israel that land for peace was not an option, that they did not accept even Israel's right to exist

So were the Palestinians (by which I mean the Arabs who lived in Palestine ) in all this?
If it was Jordon and Egypt who were the main enemies at the time and the Palestinian state was never established then I’m not sure why it would be considered a state now? Cracking on with being self-governing and sorting its own water supplies etc. It’s not real wonder the territories ended up so messed up if they’ve been unstable for that long.

Reallifelurker · 21/10/2023 15:59

Sorry for all the typos it’s this bloody phone. Edit functions vanished again.

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 16:00

@Reallifelurker
Palestinians were living there. Some refugees, some not.
Jordan annexed the WB and gave the Palestininas Jordanian citizenship. Egypt not.

I don't think the push for a Palestinian state is any less legitimate because it happened relativly recently. The Palestinians now have a strong national identity and should have the right to self-determination.

But, yes, undrstanding the history is important to understanding the current mess.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 16:22

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 16:00

@Reallifelurker
Palestinians were living there. Some refugees, some not.
Jordan annexed the WB and gave the Palestininas Jordanian citizenship. Egypt not.

I don't think the push for a Palestinian state is any less legitimate because it happened relativly recently. The Palestinians now have a strong national identity and should have the right to self-determination.

But, yes, undrstanding the history is important to understanding the current mess.

Some national identity would have coalesced during the mandate era- 1927-1948. The region was called Palestine and they had their own currency.
sample coin
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces5483.html

sample banknote
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note234885.html

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
WhiteHorseSpirit · 21/10/2023 16:35

This is an interesting snapshot in time from the NY Herald, 17 June 1917.
Its an article plus drawing of Palestine.
Shows the rampant anti-semitism in the West.

http://www.midafternoonmap.com/2013/09/birth-of-palestine.html

The Birth of New Nations: Palestine

read the full article here In 1917, New York Tribune contributor Isaac Don Levine heralded the birth of a new nation. Its name w...

http://www.midafternoonmap.com/2013/09/birth-of-palestine.html

mushti · 21/10/2023 16:37

Meshigenus · 21/10/2023 16:00

@Reallifelurker
Palestinians were living there. Some refugees, some not.
Jordan annexed the WB and gave the Palestininas Jordanian citizenship. Egypt not.

I don't think the push for a Palestinian state is any less legitimate because it happened relativly recently. The Palestinians now have a strong national identity and should have the right to self-determination.

But, yes, undrstanding the history is important to understanding the current mess.

There actually is a Palestinian state already. It's called Jordan. 80% of the population is ethnically indistinguishable from any other Palestinian area.

The British created the state of Jordan in 1922 out of thin air, using 80% of mandate Palestine. Since 1948 the Palestinans have wanted the other 20%. The Jews said then, and still say: they can't have it.

In 1947, British India was partitioned into India and Pakistan. 14 million people crossed the India/Pakistan border, in both directions, to set up new lives in a state of their choice.

There's no reason that a Palestinian state couldn't have been created in 1922, or in 1948.

It's now - too late.

DownNative · 21/10/2023 16:40

mushti · 21/10/2023 16:37

There actually is a Palestinian state already. It's called Jordan. 80% of the population is ethnically indistinguishable from any other Palestinian area.

The British created the state of Jordan in 1922 out of thin air, using 80% of mandate Palestine. Since 1948 the Palestinans have wanted the other 20%. The Jews said then, and still say: they can't have it.

In 1947, British India was partitioned into India and Pakistan. 14 million people crossed the India/Pakistan border, in both directions, to set up new lives in a state of their choice.

There's no reason that a Palestinian state couldn't have been created in 1922, or in 1948.

It's now - too late.

In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Abbas admitted it was a mistake for Palestinian leaders to reject the 1947 United Nations partition plan.

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
mushti · 21/10/2023 16:42

In terms of terminology: Until 1948, the word "Palestinian" applied exclusively to the Jewish inhabitants of the area. There was Arab nationalism, but it definintely wasn't know as Palestinian nationalism.

The Palestine Electric Company was a Jewish company - it became the Israel Electric Company upon independence, in 1948. It has been privatized since, but it's still there.

The Palestine Philharmonic Orchestra - was a Jewish orchestra - it became the Israel Philharmonic. It still plays.

The Palestine Post - was a Jewish (English Language) newspaper. It became the Jerusalem Post. It's still published.