Sunak and Herzog - live now on BBC

[stopitstopitnooow]

Live from Israel, quoting Churchill etc.

I really rather wish we weren't taking sides in this conflict.

Where? Nor on news channel, that's world business report talking about Netflix, tesla etc.
What channel are you watching or listening to?

I watched it on the BBC news channel.

You can see it here

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

IPlayer - news - live

I understand why you wish we weren't taking sides OP but the fact is that taking sides is really what foreign policy is all about. And the UK has always supported Israel because it's the only democracy in that region. Obviously we've had to speak out of both sides of our mouth cos of OPEC etc. But, ya know. All countries everywhere have always done foreign policy.

Even countries that claim to be neutral in past conflicts haven't been really. e.g. Ireland took neutrality in WW2 but still kept lines of contact with Nazi germany and were among the first to send condolences on Hitler's detah. You pick a side explicitly or implicitly.

In the current ME conflict there is plenty of implicit taking sides. Hamas is using weapons bought from North Korea, Iran and Russia. Israel using weapons from US. Every conflict has a bigger shadow conflict behind it.

It's sad but that's the way it is in the world I think.

The UK did have a real opportunity to change our current foreign policy alignment in the GE of 2019, had Jeremy become PM we would now be much more aligned with Palestine and Iran I think. But the GE didn't come out that way.

Yes I suppose the democracy point is a good one.

Is that last paragraph something you’d have welcomed?

Talking of picking sides, it baffles me how anyone benefiting from the freedoms and opportunities of life in the West might support Hamas rather than align themselves with the Israeli cause.

Not to hold women to a higher standard or anything but what exactly is it about Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their other allies that would make you pick that side?

Yes exactly @PenOfTentacles

Absolutely, @PenOfTentacles !

I'm concerned about Sunak getting involved as I don't think he's clever enough and is prone to showing his irritation when challenged. This terrible situation needs the best to try and fix it, for all our sakes, and Sunak isn't one of them.

"I know that you are taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians, in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas, which seem to put civilians in harm’s way" - Rishi Sunak

Well, those are some very effective precautions, there, Rishi! </s>

No because I think it would have been massively destabilising to all of our alliances, principally with the US, but also our positions with important partners/rivals like Asia, India, Russia etc...basically it would have been throwing 150 years of UK foreign policy up in the air and any sudden change of that magnitude is to be feared, in my view (I would say that for any nation and foreign policy not just this one. You mess with foreign policy at your peril cos there's a lot of unknwon unknowns and unforeseens).

I'd love to know what plans the security services and MI6 were putting in place for the possibility of a Corbyn win. I'm sure there were plans being put in place to protect the UK's current global alignment and prevent a sudden rift. I also know that Piers Corbyn was a worry for the security service in the event of a Corbyn win.

Of course it was obvious by the start of 2019 that Labour would not win any election but in 2017 it must have been a serious possibility. I'd love to know what the plans and thinking were but no doubt the papers won't be released in my lifetime!

Entirely agree with you. I look back amazed at how it came to be a possibility and the magnitude of it had it occurred, as you say.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, they are not the the Palestinian population as a whole - you know that. Palestinian does not = Hamas.

Lots of us will not align ourselves with the Israeli government actions, but that does not mean we are pro Hamas - tired of having to point that out.

Yes I'm sure any Palestinian land (without Hamas) would be a beacon for womens and gay rights just like the rest of that region of the world (sarcasm). The fact is we align with Israel because they align with our values.

The actions of the Israeli government do not align with my values.

Not taking about the Israeli govt but the people. But even the govt aligns more work my valise ghan Hamas does - they are Nazis.

In terms of picking sides I always think of the governments rather than their citizens. It should go without saying that Israelis are not Bibi anymore than Brits are Rishi or Palestinians are whoever currently leads Hamas.

The actions of most governments don’t align fully with my personal values, but the world is not exactly awash with great choices these days.

Well yes I totally understand your point, never in a million years would my values align with the crooks and idiots that have been in charge of the UK the last 13 years. Trouble is it feels like Rishi is speaking on behalf of the British people - bloody doesnt speak for me! lets face it, Rishi isnt even an elected prime minister.

I’d take aligning with who we do over Corbyn’s version.

Whilst people may rail against the West our freedoms are mostly appreciated and if we had to rely on allies most would be relieved.

As much as some would throw that away (in posts probably not reality) I doubt they can count on the ME returning the favour.

As pp said pretty dangerous thinking.

I wish the PM wouldn't claim to speak for the UK and say we are behind Israeli actions. I don't know how many people agree with him but it isn't 100% of UK.

I am not on the side of the Israeli government or of Hamas. I am on the side of the Jewish and Palestinian people and their right to peace. Not the warmongering leaders.

Yes to absolutely all of this.

Let's talk about your values then. You think IDF is somehow managing to give a free pass to women and gays in Gaza? Or you think if a population as a whole is oppressed then women and gays prosper?

Or your values say that one sided bombing and starving people who cannot defend themselves is legitimate and not a war crime?

Where do your values go when you fill up your car with the petrol that comes from the middle east or do you check country of origin and make it a point not to use any energy companies getting fuel from middle east?

Women and gay rights prosper when a country as a whole prospers and progresses. Please don't hide your racism as support for women and gay rights.