Sunak and Herzog - live now on BBC

[stopitstopitnooow]

Live from Israel, quoting Churchill etc.

I really rather wish we weren't taking sides in this conflict.

The US has always been a strong ally of Israel

I doubt you’ll see that change

I think many people have forgotten that Israel is responding to a major, vile, evil and sickening terrorist attack that is ongoing. We cannot begin to comprehend the scale of the horror that was perpetrated 12 days ago, and is still unfolding.

Sunak has gone to Israel to commiserate and support. There is no need for him to go to Gaza at the same time, 'to show fairness'. Did anyone demand in 2001 that world leaders visiting Ground Zero also went to Afghanistan to be fair?! Why is fairness needed when dealing with the aftermath of pure evil???

Israel is now at war. Civilians die during war, which is devastating but unavoidable. Israel is not specifically trying to kill civilians, but everyone is desperate to believe that they are, as it fits the narrative of 'they're all as bad as each other'. They're not.

We're now on high alert for terrorist attacks here in the UK. Is anyone worried that those terrorist attacks will come from the Jewish community? No. It would be ridiculous to think so. Maybe give that some thought.

Don’t talk nonsense. Why would the Jewish community attack the UK who is supporting Israel?

The reason people want support for Gaza is the ongoing humanitarian crisis and the disproportionate amount of Palestinian deaths. They are stuck between Hamas and the Israeli government, neither of whom could care less about them.

Maybe you should say outright what you mean by your last paragraph. It does hint at islamophobia but I could be wrong. It would also be ridiculous to think supporting Palestine is encouraging terrorism on the UK.

No, not Afghanistan! But I stood right there, on Trafalgar square, and shouted at the top of my lungs that I fucking disagreed with the idea of dropping bombs onto civilians in response!

Shortly thereafter, I found myself in Trafalgar Square again, loudly expressing my disagreement again, when the "coalition of the willing" was about to bomb Iraq, and was trying to gaslight us all with obviously faked evidence of "weapons of mass destriuction". As did the estimated 36 million people, who took a stand against that war back then!

I am only one woman, only a private citizen! But, via the means available to myself, I demanded of my own government that they be fair!

And I am demanding it now, as a mighty state with one of the most powerful armies in the world is besieging and deliberately starving and depriving of even safe drinking water 2.2 million people - 50% of whom are literal children!

And my PM stands there and hugs the guy who can stop it all, assuring him of "our" support!

Not my support! Not in my name! I would not have it in Afghanistan, and I am not having it now!

The pp is up to date

MI5 talking on it recently

Yes @HeidiInTheBigCity you protested, and I wish the voices of us little people would be heard, but this thread is about the actions of world leaders, and what would be the appropriate responses from them.

The pp applied the statement to those who support Palestinians too which is why I asked for clarification first.

What would be appropriate for world leaders, you ask?

Well, it would be for them not to descend into fucking jingoism and go hug the hard-right leader - who, by the way, is so controversial that the only way he even got to retain that position was to form a coalition that, literally!, includes racial supremacists, and who was about to have a domestic explosion on his hands had not the Hamas psychopaths rather conveniently (and, no, I am NOT a conspiracy theorist; I am not insituating anything beyond: if I happened to be Machiavelli, I would call it a lucky coincidence for Bibi!) decided to help him out a bit - and assure him of "our" absolute support, as literal fucking children are being starved in Gaza. And pommeled with bombs in Rafah and Khan Younis - the very "south" the IDF ordered them to evacuate to!

It would be "appropriate" for our leaders to demand "ceasefire now!" - as Jewish American activists did in the capitol.

It would be "appropriate" for our leaders to recognise that they are not making any of us safer by letting Bibi (and, worse: literal supremacist racists like Gvir!) bomb Gaza into oblivion - they are making us less safe! Because, by not taking a stance against the needless suffering of civilians, by not even pretending to care about proportionality, they are making you and me, personally!, look complicit! Because they claim to speak in our names!

@cordiality I completely agree with you that it feels as though many people on here are completely sweeping under the rug the absolutely horrific and barbaric terrorist attack on innocent Israelis including lots of very young adults, women, elderly and children including babies by Hamas less than 2 weeks ago. When ISIS were committing these sorts of atrocities we were appalled. But somehow the same level of horror regarding this attack on what is officially one of our allies hasn’t seemed to register with a lot of people, even with echos of the Holocaust behind it. And I can’t imagine people would be at all relaxed about it and so keen on seeing both sides etc. if some terrorist group randomly did to the U.K. what has just been done to Israel. Plus Israel is in a much more vulnerable position geographically and culturally than we are.

I do worry about escalation of this conflict and I would like to see Israel acting with greater care to avoid war crimes etc. I didn’t like the statement one of the Israeli military heads put out about the emphasis of their attacks on Palestine being on damage rather than accuracy for example. I’d also like to see our leaders publicly putting more emphasis on avoiding escalation and prioritising humanitarianism wherever possible in Palestine during this conflict. But I do strongly suspect they’re doing it in private. In times of conflict you can’t always let your enemies know exactly what you’re thinking about everything at all times, and sometimes you just have to show support to your longtime ally who has been horrifically attacked.

I really hope that Israel is truly focussing on the primary goal of eradicating Hamas (which I believe is a totally legitimate goal with a terrorist group who have proven themselves to be a significant threat), rather than a possible hidden goal of gaining more territory at the expense of Palestinians or simply wanting “revenge” or even genocide.

I do see that Israel is in a very difficult position with no good answers to what just happened and I don’t think Israel just ignoring the threat from Hamas and carrying on as normal after such an attack is at all realistic. They haven’t even given back a single hostage for goodness sake or given assurances that they are alive and well!

It’s also in my eyes naive and totally ridiculous to suggest Sunak should have gone to visit Gaza… Not only would that be massively difficult security wise and cause serious escalation in an already super volatile situation if for example he was killed or even injured while there. But in my eyes it would be like ISIS pulling off a hugely successful 9/11 scale type terrorist attack in the U.K. and people saying oh why has the US president not come over to show us support and then gone over to visit injured ISIS fighters in the caliphate after we responded with military force. Come on! Israel is our ally, that was clearly never going to happen.

Someone being an ally doesn't mean you turn your back as they commit atrocities and create a large scale humanitarian crisis.
This isn't showing support to Hamas, but the people the Israeli government is leaving without fresh water, basic supplies or a safe way to escape before launching their ground offensive.
What Hamas did was horrific and so is what the Israeli government is doing, only difference being our leaders continue the trend of turning a blind eye to the oppression and treatment of ordinary Palestinians.

Yes, this!

Following the general principle of "friends don't let friends drive drunk"!

No, we are not even being a very good ally! I have had the extraordinary privilege in my life that people have told me "you need to stop! You are behaving like a total arsehole!" - the same should apply between states!

Good post, actually realistic

It really should. Hezbollah have already announced they are getting ready to join Hamas in their fight against Israel, there is no doubt other groups will quickly join in and it will tip into a war on a much larger scale.
The Hamas attack could not be ignored, however the scale of the IDF retaliation has gone too far, already more than triple the amount of Palestinians have been killed, most are children. It should never have been allowed to happen, but it should have been stopped by other world leaders reasoning with and supporting the Israeli government.
Now, what we'll unfortunately, most likely, see, is a war which involve a lot of different groups, all against one country. It's not good.

Talking of picking sides, it baffles me how anyone benefiting from the freedoms and opportunities of life in the West might support Hamas rather than align themselves with the Israeli cause.

Not to hold women to a higher standard or anything but what exactly is it about Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their other allies that would make you pick that side

No one is supporting Hamas. Not taking sides doesn’t mean supporting the other side. Bit confused as to why you think it would.

Never thought I’d have an occasion to type this but it did feel like Rishi spoke for me when he voiced support for Israel’s defensive actions within the confines of international law. I felt physical relief through my whole body. Lately it seems like so many people have forgotten why the state of Israel exists, and how tiny and alone it is, surrounded by enemies

Europe and America have always backed Israel. They are not alone, far from it.