Assisted Conception (and the bits in between) Volume 5

[Bumpless]

Thought I'd set us up a new home! kettle's on and choc tin open.

This is a lucky start to our new thread: 2 BFPs and a fantastic fertilisation rate from Dueling!

Boobs and biscuits to everyone

Happy birthday for yesterday Rowing, hope you were made a fuss of at home!

Sounds like an interesting meeting with the specialist then BB? What did he say and how quickly could the tests be done if you decide to go that way?

Lissy well done on successful downregging and hope the stimming goes well too. It's good you're not fazed by the needles and hopefully you will have a very easy time on it. When's your next scan?

Horton hope you are feeling relaxed and able to take it nice and easy on the 2WW. How are those positive visualisations going? Keep thinking of the embies dividing and growing and getting stronger every day as they burrow in.

MM glad things seem to be going well in Oz so far, you have such a lot to adjust to! Good luck for the scan today and I hope the little ones are still looking well and happy.

Sooty good to hear from you and very best of luck for your donor plans. So sorry for your friend having to have a hysterectomy, that's awful.

Good luck for the final dentist session tomorrow Italian. Let's hope that knocks it on the head once and for all! I don't watch X Factor I'm afraid - just really does nothing for me. Strictly Come Dancing however pushes all my buttons! Not too sure about Ann Widdicombe taking part though - what was she thinking?!

I'm 7 weeks today and so far so good. My practically doubled in size overnight this week, I spent all of yesterday feeling exhausted and nauseous, so I am feeling quite optimistic that this is a real pregnancy and not just a puff of wind! On Friday afternoon I will find out how things are looking. I won't get a chance to post afterwards so don't take silence the wrong way (we are going to see Muse at Wembley which is hugely exciting, and then have friends with us all weekend). On Monday I will let you know how things are. Assuming everything is OK we also have an appointment with the m/c specialist next week for him to re-check my clotting situation and make sure he is happy with how things are going.

Waves and Rowing's left-over birthday cake to anyone I missed.

Cross-post Italian... Sorry about your BFN, that must have been disappointing especially after 6 days of waiting. It's very hard not to start 'what if' thoughts. And it's only natural to hope that you get lucky all by yourselves and don't have to resort to donors and expense and intervention...anyone going through AC hopes they will get the stereotypical BFP before the treatment starts. Take it easy and have a blub if you need to. x

Belated returns Rowing Folks are wondering how you are on the feisty and forty thread... so I stalked you in here... and am now wondering whether to introduce myself to everyone ... as dear Dr T recommends trying IVF next April if we haven't conceived naturally by then....

Tis a lot to get your head round... all the relative chances of success... the joys of donor eggs.... all a bit of a mind f**k

Sootykalucy - very good story to hear. Very inspiring. Thank you so much for posting it. I've had 3 failed ICSIs and feel like it's the end of the world. I am irrational and irritable with DH. I can barely speak to him these days. Everything he does or says irritates me. We really must sort this out for my/our sanity. My work is being affected and my performance at the office is really rubbish. I know i'm just managing to get through each day and not truly doing the best job possible. I work in a solicitors office and the clients deserve better than i am delivering at present. You are an inspiration to me. I think i would consider an egg donor but i think my problem is the fertilisation stage as i've never ever been pregnant. I feel so hard done by and angry that all the women around me seem to be able to conceive but i can't. I am still in denial that all three ICSIs have failed. It's surreal. I know it's happened and i've been through the processes but still i can't come to terms with the failures. Do you have any advice? I am amazed you've been through 8 IVFs. I feel for you i really do. how did you find the strength of character to persevere?

BB Pig to twig, like it, good name!

Rosemary Conley was fab; I am a fan (I did not actually meet her of course!).

Lissysilver thinking of you and your fab lining!

Sassy hello, welcome, as you see I am lurking here!

Cerubina glad it is all going well. I am actually feeling quite positive, still waiting for af to turn up! But Rosemary Conley today was great.

How's it going MM.

Idreaminchocolate how are you doing, are you going to just try naturally or to go for another round.

Love and waves and chocolate boobs to all,

Hello to all ladies who have welcomed me back with open chocolatey arms!

There seems to be a lot of new ladies since I was on here last - would it be cheeky to start off a roll call so I can catch up?

Rowing - yes it is an absolute nightmare not having a kitchen. We're living on microwave meals (a Zita no-no, of course!!).

Ciao Italian! Yes it's me in all my Chocobunny glory!! How is your Rosemary Connolley going? My main problem is my eating - I just can't stop! I could also do with doing more exercise. I'm going to start going to a yoga class. I know this won't necessarily help me lose weight but it should get me back on the path to being more aware of my body and what I'm putting into it. I know exactly what I need to do - I just need to get back in the right frame of mind.

In answer to your question, we are "trying" naturally, although my cycle is completely screwed up at the moment. My last cycle was 73 days long with breakthrough bleeding after about 55 days. I don't know whether I'm coming or going!

The last time I was on the thread you were discussing going for adoption, so I was quite surprised when you said that the list you were on was for a donor! We'll be with you all the way :-)

Right ladies, I'm off to bed now. Here's my start to the roll call....

Idream - TTC#1 Age 32 1 failed ICSI cycle April '10 Male & Female factors Planning next ICSI cycle late '10.

Italiangreyhound, v sorry not to have answered you, I've nit got the hang of this thread and I'm also typing with 1 finger on my phone! Dr Amin Gorgy runs the Fertility and Gynaecology Academy. He used to work with Dr. Taranissi at the ARGC and now runs a service where you can have fertility treatment wherever you like and he will monitor you from an immune point of view, to help ensure good implantation and avoid mc. He, Taranissi and Dr. hassan Shehata are the main chaps to see about repeated IVF failure despite good embryos and also rpt mc. They all take the view that a huge reason that otherwise good fertility candidates fail to get and stay pregnant is that their bodies are hostile, and their immune system is making the womb hostile, or causing the immune system to try to reject the baby by putting blood clots in the placenta. They treat with a combo of steroids to dampen the immune system, and aspirin and heparin

...to thin the blood and prevent blood clots. Some more severly affected women need more heavy duty immune suppression, but in a nutshell that's it. Dr.Alan Beer, the world authority on this reckoned he could sort out rpt mc and ivf failure in 80% of women within 3 cycles.
I never saw Gorgy, I was 37 when we got started and had my immune testing and icsi at ARGC but we could have been treated by Gorgy and tried ttc naturally if we'd wanted, but i was too impatient! Anyway, it worked on both of the cycles we had, and I have a boy and am pregnant with twins!
I've been told repeatedly that if we hadn't had the immune treatment there's no way I would have carried to term, and any ivf/icsi would be doomed to fail, so I'm so glad we had the testing done first. Apologies if I'm repeating myself or teaching my gran to suck eggs! X

Had my scan yesterday and unfortunately discovered that one of the twins has died. It came as a massive shock to me, since we've already had scans at 6, 7 and 9 weeks and both twins were thriving - and I've been feeling fine. According to the doctor, it was probably the result of some sort of chromosomal abnormality and not due to anything that I did or didn't do... The scan showed that it was a seriously ill baby and even if they'd found the heartbeat yesterday, it wouldn't have survived until birth.

Absolutely blindsided and keep hoping I'm going to wake up from this bad dream. I had so desperately wanted twins when I was going through IVF, but when I got them it took me some time to get comfortable with the idea. It has only been the last week when I've really started to celebrate what I had, and now its gone.

The second baby appears to be fine and the doctor says that there is no reason at this point to think that it won't go to term and be born a healthy baby. This should be a consolation to me, but its not at the moment. To make matters worse, they will leave the first baby in the womb, as trying to remove it will put the healthy baby at risk. So whenever I think about my still living baby, I see the dead one beside it.

I'm sorry - this is really just too awful to share and I won't go on. Its just hard being here on my own dealing with it. After the MC earlier this year and then this, I really regret ever trying to have another baby. If I had known how painful it would be, I never would have done it.

Sorry for the self-centred, miserable post...

Oh MM I'm so desperately sorry to hear your news. That must have been an utter shock to you and just when you'd begun getting used to the idea. Is your DH with you? You must be absolutely knocked for six. I don't know if I can say anything useful at this stage apart from saying that I will be thinking of you as you come to terms with this and very much hoping that the other baby survives and brings you joy that you wouldn't have had otherwise. It must be hard to accept having the other baby still there but without any hope for it.

I can't believe what a cruel blow it is. Try to take some comfort from the fact that you have not done anything wrong, it is a bitter blow but you have a little one in there who looks great and with time you will begin to feel more confident that things are going to work out for him and your family.

So sorry...

BB it sounds as though you are having a really big week filled with difficult things to handle. You don't have to make any decisions on the IVF right now though, get through this week and let yourself handle things one at a time.

From what you're saying, it sounds as though they would be happy to do the full battery of tests on you but you aren't happy enough with the doctor to put yourself through it. In the meantime your usual consultant is going to give you some drugs that should improve your chances of things working - without putting yourself through anything else.

That sounds like a good solution to me and hopefully will make you feel more optimistic going into it again, which is really important. You sailed through the rest of it last time and it was the final hurdle that didn't work, so this time you have the game plan that should help control that factor too. Sounds like a great strategy to me.

FWIW, I went into my ICSI knowing that if we got a BFP I'd have the heparin and aspirin treatment that would give us 7 times greater chances of a live baby than without it - which helped get my head in the right place for it and is continuing to keep me feeling positive now. It sounds as though your situation may be quite similar.

As I say, take one thing at a time and get through the rest of the week then things may look more achievable.

MM there is nothing that anyone can say that would make you feel happier but big hugs anyway.

We are supposed to have our first FC appointment next week but TH won't be able to make it so need to re-arrange but getting hold of the secretary does not seem to be so easy.... Am actually feeling relatively chilled now. Though running is on a temporary hold as I am not feeling too well.

Oh, MM, so so sorry to hear your news. I hope you have someone looking after you really well.

BB, that all sounds like a lot to take in. FWIW, at Create Health they recommend baby aspirin as standard.

MM really sorry to hear your news - thinking about you [hug] xxx

BB - sounds like you're having a tough time, here's some chocolate boobs to help you get through

Just had a friend announce "I'm expecting" on facebook. It was quite hard typing "congratulations". It's not that I resent her getting pregnant but she's already had one during the time I've been trying - it's not fair (stamps little size 2 foot) - I was in the queue before her for the next one!

Off to organise my wardrobe - if I'm going to be childless I might as well be stylish and childless!

MM I am so sorry. I just want to jump on a plane and come and see you, but you'll have to put up with this sad blue face looking like me.

I really don't want to say anything crash or horrible and I know that really there are no words to say (so I should shut up) but I just wanted to say that your little one who did not make it was, as the doctors say, just not destined to make it, and although it is really heartbreaking when anything like this happens to any of us, there is a little bit of good still there in that your other little one is still OK. Please let all your sadness and emotions out and I so much hope that there are good people around you who can be of help. But, please remember your little one who is still hanging on in there. My friend in RL had a similar situation, although not IVF, she had twins and one died at roughly the same stage as yours. She now has a beautiful little boy and although there is that sadness there is also a little hope. I hope I have not offended you, please ignore me if I have. With all my thoughts for you to get through this sad, dark time.

BB so sorry this week has been so difficult and stressful. I know there aren't many things to say but at least with your little boy they know what the problem might be and are looking into it. I think Cerubina is righ that you have a good plan and a good idea of what is happening so all the very best with whatever you decide about the treatment.

Cerubina can I ask how you know you would need heparin and aspirin? I must have missed something! I am asking my clinic about tests. I know we have only had one failed attempt with IVF donor eggs but we did have a total of at least 2 failed attempts with IUI (it may have been three or four, I have lost count because we had at least two attempts where we did not get any eggs, one IVF and at least one IUI!

Bagofholly Thanks for your wonderful info. I am also on the Feisty and forty thread, a few ladies have had repeated miscarriage there but have also managed to carry a number of babies too. I myself have had one baby (now nearly 6 - big baby!) and also one very early miscarriage. I wonder if this immune stuff is relevant for people who have had at least one successful pregnancy?

Idreaminfruitandnut I am sure you are stylish, size two feet - you must be very dainty. All the best with your natural attempts. Keep us posted.

This may be of interest to anyone else who is looking into donor eggs
www.bionews.org.uk/page_46274.asp

Quote from website - "The term epigenetics first came to my attention about 18 months ago. Browsing a well known infertility web forum I came across a post which told of a branch of science that was proving that recipients of donated eggs could have an influence on how genes were ?turned on' in the child they were carrying. It referred to an example from the equine world:

?In horse breeding for example, it's not uncommon to implant a pony embryo into the womb of a horse. The foals that result are different from normal ponies. They're bigger. These animals' genotype ? their genes ? are the same as a pony's, but their phenotype ? what their genes actually look like in the living animal ? is different. The implication of epigenetics is that the child inherits characteristics from the woman who carries the child even if the original DNA comes from a donor egg. In other words the birth mother influences what the child is like at a genetic level - it IS her child.'"

BUT I must emphasise that I am not thinking of having a pony!

Waves and smiles and sad hugs to all you lovely, lovely ladies.

Gosh MM I'm so very sorry that you're going through this. What terrible sadness to have to bear. I'll remember you and your little one and your angel baby in my prayers tonight.

BB, firstly I hope your boy's egg challenge went ok! How scary! One of my brothers had terrible trouble with anaphylactic reactions to nuts and pulses and we thought he'd always have to avoid them, but he's 25 now and seems to have grown out of it. Hope your little chap shrugs this off in time. A life without cake seems very unfair!
Aren't the Bach Rescue Remedies alcohol based? If so, I think if you had loads of it and mixed it with a nice Schweppes tonic you've got the perfect alternative to G&T! I bet there's a cracking market for that!
Sorry to hear Gorgy wasn't too inspiring! I'm not sure which drugs you mean, when you say about not being FDA approved? If it's any reassurance, there are hardly any drugs which are proven to be safe in pregnant or

trying-to-be pregnant women as it's very difficult to do clinical trials in this patient group. And when you look at other therapeutic areas, very many drugs are used off licence. Even the ultra conservative NHS prescribes over 60% of its cancer therapies off licence, and even has a target of getting over 50% of newly diagnosed patients into cancer drug trials, so FDA/NICE/MCA approval isn't always the only basis for use. Is your doc going to prescribe clexane too? I think that's crucial to be honest, but you shouldn't have any trouble using that as it's used widely in this setting and in pregnant women. My NHS haematologist prescribes mine. Hope you get a good sticky BFP very soon!

Italiangreyhound, secondary infertility is very often caused by immune issues. My (divvy) understanding is that you have your first baby but during pregnancy your body recognises this foreign entity enough to boost your immune system a bit. This is good, and is what is meant to happen. But for some people they become sort of sensitised so at their second and subsequent pregnancies the body recognises the embryo as totally foreign and prevents it implanting, or causes blood clots to form in the placenta, causing mc. It's not always as linear as that because there are other reasons people mc, but that's the theory anyway, and it's treated in the same way - steroids to dampen the immune system and blood thinners to prevent clots. Hope this helps! It's outlined in the book I keep banging on about, by Alan Beer. X

Idreaminfruitandnut thanks for asking, I found I was just not ready for adoption yet. It was a huge shock not to be ready and I know a few people in real life probably thought it was the ideal answer, give a child a home, make me a mummy again etc. And yes, at the right time it would be fab, but I was just not in the right place and not ready to give it a real go. Not ready to stop wanting another baby by fertility treatment so we decided really truly one last go!

BagofHolly Just curious, if you are saying your prayers, what religion are you, are you a Christian? Ignore me if I am prying. I am a Christian. We had a Bible study for mums at my house today and it was so nice to share a few things for prayer together. I told them all my funny BFN sitting on the loo trying not to wee and to get the test out of the pack story! Just curious too if you are a doctor as you sound very knowledgeable. I am a dope when it comes to medication. Just wondering what clexane is for? Please just remind me of the name of the Dr Beer book?

Will add myself to the roll call

Idream - TTC#1 Age 32 1 failed ICSI cycle April '10 Male & Female factors Planning next ICSI cycle late '10.
Italian - TTC#2 (1 DD aged 5 from IUI) Age 45 1 failed ICSI cycle with donor eggs April '10 plus IUI attempts hopefully donor IVF May 2011

Italiangreyhound I'm a Catholic. Most of this fertility stuff doesn't sit well with Catholicism and I suspect I may be a de facto ex communicant but I haven't let that concern me too much! I'm not a doctor, I've worked in pharmaceuticals for the best part of 20 years and have a researcher's brain I think. I find the science behind a lot of this fascinating, but more than this, believe strongly in patients managing their own health, and not simply accepting the mainstream opinion without question. The book is "is my body baby friendly?" by Dr Alan Beer and it's all about the immune system and its impact on fertility, esp in relation to rpt mc and ivf failure. His approach has been quite widely adopted by the most successful clinics in the private sector and is being adopted slowly but steadily by the nhs. It breaks my heart when I hear of women with loss after loss, failure after failure, struggling on when actually a fairly simple cocktail of drugs could quickly fix things. Clexane thins the blood, I'm on a jab of it every night till 6 wks post delivery! Ouch!