Assisted Conception (and the bits in between) Volume 5

[Bumpless]

Thought I'd set us up a new home! kettle's on and choc tin open.

This is a lucky start to our new thread: 2 BFPs and a fantastic fertilisation rate from Dueling!

Boobs and biscuits to everyone

Hi Ladies - I am wondering if people here could give me a little advice. Been TTC for just over a year and had two MCs last year. DH has had one semen analysis test and we found he was just lower than normal for motility and morphology. I have a fibroid in my uterous that is apparently occupying somewhere between 10-20% of my uterous - no chance of implantation there and no surgery that can fix it. This means my odds of conception every month are lower than the average couple my age, added to that possibly lower chances with DH results (he has to repeat the test).

I am 39.

No advice from NHS except to be positive, that MCs happen at my age, and that we have good reason to be hopeful. It's not washing for me anymore - in fact, all the smiles and 'you'll be fines' aren't ringing true at all and I'm beginning to wonder if they're bluffing me because they won't/can't do anything to help. I honestly feel totally unsupported as if NO ONE is taking my age and diminishing chances seriously at all.

However, feeling very unsure and wanting to know what other nasty surprises might be in store, we went to see an IVF guy privately - not for IVF, but for talk about our fertility in general (it was he who suggested the semen analysis and for me to have a D21 test - I did ovulate that month).

At the very end of the session, he said if we hadn't conceived within 6 months, we needed to go down the IVF route. This was the FIRST time anyone had even remotely said this to us and we were shocked. I am two months away from that crunch time. I am scared of IVF, but more than that, we'd find it very very hard to afford it.

The thing is, is IVF really the last option for us?

Are there other fertility treatments we could try in between?

What are we entitled to at our age (DH is 42 this year and we have no children)?

What questions/demands etc should we be making of our GP?

Is there different medication that you think we should be being offered? Do you think the NHS should be being more proactive in our case or should I assume the 'you'll be fines' are an acceptable response all things considered?

Would really appreciate some guidance.

Just shaggy, how frustrating for you. Don't be frightened of IVF if that's what you need to do - we've almost all had it at least once and we're all here to tell the tale! I'm afraid I have not been down the NHS route as we are not eligible but I'm sure someone here will be able to help. It's more difficult for you clearly with the fibroid and maybe it's implantation which is where things aren't happening rather than fertilisation which is what the majority of couples have a problem with. There I cannot give you any advice on I'm afraid. I would suggest doing a search on mumsnet for fibroids and infertility - someone is bound to have had the identical problem. Your GP should also be able to help more than just telling you to cross yuor fingers - that's crap. You should change doctors and tell them you have been trying for at least 6 months more than you have! Good luck.

Me - AF today - didn't even get to test

Why are you scared of IVF? I ask only because I was terrified of the drugs and injections and it turned out they were nowhere near as bad as I had feared. In fact, they were absolutely fine.

Re other treatments, you can try things like IUI but I imagine that with low sperm motility and morphology it might not really offer you a much better chance than just keeping on trying. At least with IVF you know that the eggs have fertilised so it's one hurdle cleared, IYSWIM. Similarly, you could try Clomid, but if you are ovulating normally and it is your DH's sperm that is the problem this probably will not help that much. You would be more likely to release two eggs but if the sperm isn't getting to them then that does you no good.

Where do you live? It is worth looking up the rules for your area as some areas will fund one cycle of IVF for a childless couple and some will fund three.

I would be asking for fertility investigations on the NHS pronto. This will hopefully kick you into a funded IVF programme once a problem has been identified. It means that you will also get your tubes investigated etc. I have had two HSGs, a laparoscopy and numerous blood tests on the NHS.

Also, I don't really know much about recurrent miscarriages but at your age (I am 41 so similarly aged) it is certainly worth pushing for some kind of investigation of those. Two miscarriages in a year sounds horrible for you. I'm so sorry.

Having said all that, your situation is pretty hopeful in many ways. Horrible as your miscarriages must have been, you have proved that you can get pregnant.

Re the blood test that you had, did you only have the day 21 test or did you have others too? Was egg reserve mentioned to you at all?

Wishing you lots of luck. I hope it works out for you.

Sorry to hear about AF, Amber. Hope you are okay.

Thanks for the responses

I suppose I am scared of an intensely medicalised process. But my biggest fears are around the very low success rate and the cost!! We would have to possibly re-morgage or do something drastic to do this... and possibly for nothing. I've just checked and it seems I could get one round on the NHS if before I turn 40, but this IVF expert said we were not eligible - I assume for another reason (i.e. I am not strictly 'infertile').

I take your point that we got PG twice - I cling to that - but it is precisely THAT that baffles me about this guy's advice ment that we needed to go for IVF. At the time, I hadn't had the results of my HSG (which revealed the fibroid) or of DH's semen analysis, so it wasn't based on that either.

We've tried to get answers on the MCs, but FRUSTRATINGLY - especially given my age - the NHS doesn't actually consider these to be recurrent until we've had three MCs and only then will they look into doing tests to see why ! By which time we might be too old.

Would be grateful if you could tell me what kind of blood tests we should ask for, since this info doesn;t seem to be forthcoming from the GP.

This guy mentioned an AMH test - ovarian reserve I think - but also said we wouldn't get that on the NHS ..... I don't know what I've been paying for my whole working life!

I had an AMH test (which revealed a low ovarian reserve). I tink it was about £150 so not hideously expensive. It's just another thing to rule out I guess.

AMH would give you some indication of ovarian reserve (although it tells you nothing about the egg quality). You don't get this on the NHS but you could pay for it to be done via a private doctor or via a sympathetic GP (would definitely recommend seeing someone a bit less dismissive) and it only costs about £100.

As well as a day 21 test, they do also usually give you a day 3 test - did you have this? Also, I don't see why you would not be eligible for IVF on the NHS as I would have been eligible (had I not already had a child) and have no fertility issues apart from age and being rubbish at getting pregnant. Also, since then my DH has found that he has low normal sperm morphology but at the time we discussed IVF with NHS people his sperm count was thought to be normal (less stringent guidelines, I think). So in fact your DH has a known fertility issue which should lead to you being eligible anyway.

As for the cost and no guaranteed result, only you know if you want a child enough to take the chance. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's what it amounts to.

At the time we were talking to the NHS about our problems conceiving, they also said 'you need to go for IVF' and what it basically boils down to is your age and the fact that you have not yet been successfully pregnant.

Going private means you could also have an ultrasound scan to look at things like blood supply to the womb and ovaries which gives an idea of general reproductive health and number of antral follicles which gives an idea of egg reserve. This cost me about £250 as part of my initial consultation, I think.

If I were you, I would be finding a sympathetic GP really fast and getting them to put you on the list for NHS IVF. But these often have longish wait times so there is no guarantee you would be seen before you turn 40.

Slightly cheaper options include things like 'natural IVF' which works with your cycle and is a lot cheaper as very few drugs are used, but obviously if you have an anovulatory cycle then you won't get an egg and often a perfectly healthy egg simply doesn't fertilise or grow. I got 9 eggs in my recent round of IVF, 6 fertilised but only two were good enough to implant. You can sometimes do things like buy three cycle packages which works out cheaper per cycle.

It is a tough decision, I know.

Hi justshaggy and welcome. I?m very sorry to hear about your m/cs and the tribulations of getting help from the doctors.

I know what you mean about feeling shocked when they mention IVF. It is hardly what anyone hopes for for themselves, and I was really worried when they suggested it for us that it would send me even more mental than I already am TTC naturally, plus the expense, odds of success, hype of going through a cycle and doing injections all seem quite frightening. It takes a bit of time to get your head round it, so don?t be bounced into it but equally with time and getting used to the idea you may find it?s not so scary. Post on here and read up on sites such as fertilityfriends.co.uk for info.

As for your own situation, I agree with Horton that getting pregnant is a good positive note to cling to, although I know that losing babies is a kick in the teeth. I?ve lost two myself, both our only conceptions since 2007 and so although it?s positive that we can do it, it?s not exactly like falling off a log and the losses are a double blow.

It seems to me that the fibroid is the biggest concern and you need to be sure they have dealt with that before embarking on IVF. You say it can?t be removed but a second opinion is worth getting. Perhaps it is not just a problem for implantation but also for continued growth of your embryos ? there is no point going through IVF if a fibroid would prevent the baby growing properly and cause another loss. Were your previous losses quite early or were they late enough that anatomical problems could be a factor?

It is true that miscarriage is quite common, but actually repeated miscarriage (i.e. more than one) is not that common (I think only 2% of women suffer with this). The NHS I suppose have to have some limits on who they treat, but it is not helpful when you have had two losses and feel time is not on your side.

My GP actually said he would refer me after two losses, given my age (37), but in the event when I spoke to him I had already started the process of getting a private referral to a m/c specialist, and I can tell you it is very expensive to have all the tests they recommend. It would certainly be worth persevering to try and get referred by your GP. If you are anywhere near London, the most respected specialist clinic is at St Mary?s in Paddington. There is also I think a very good centre in Liverpool and another in Cardiff. Can you see another GP and go to him/her armed with some research and a clear argument that you need to be referred to one of these clinics now, not after you have lost another baby? I would hope that sometimes when faced with a knowledgeable and articulate patient they will not just fob you off but listen to your concerns.

I do think you have a case to get proper treatment, and a coordinated work-up from someone who knows about fertility and miscarriage. Don?t be disheartened but do take control and get informed. I hope this is some help!

Amber, so sorry...

Hello, me again. Justshaggy, I have consulted a book on miscarriage that I have ("Miscarriage: what every woman needs to know by Lesley Regan") to see what it says about fibroids.

It says (amongst other things) that "many women with fibroids become pregnant without any delays and experience no complications during their pregnancies. However, some fibroids can enlarge the uterus and distort the uterine cavity to such an extent that they cause serious reproductive problems...The endometrial lining over the surface of submucous fibroids has a poorer blood supply and this is probably what makes it difficult for an embryo to implant (infertility) or to continue to develop successfully (miscarriage)..."

It says that an operation may be possible to remove it (not through the abdomen but via the cervix - hysteroscopy) or that an MRI technique could be used, which is a day-case procedure not needing anaesthetic and supposedly with good success rates. I found this website which is all about the MRI option and may be of interest. Note they are also based at St Mary's in London.

Perhaps it is worth going to your GP and asking firstly for a referral to a proper gynae who can assess the type of fibroid you have and comment on the chances of treating it (if you have only been diagnosed by HSG then I doubt you have had the definitive opinion). The gynae might be able to refer you for this specific treatment - I think you will get better luck from a specialist than from your GP, but you need to clear that hurdle first.

Hope this is helpful.

Hi all Choco I miss you, how are you?

Amber So sorry you got AF. Thinking of you.

I know how you feel, that jealous feeling when people tell you their happy news, rub their bump or whatever, it is hard to keep a smiling face! I recently went to the NCT conference and was SURROUNDED by bumps, babies, kids of all ages. I felt really normal that day, so was fine, but other days I would have been in tears! I also go to weight watchers and went back tonight but not 4 lbs off, 4 lbs on! Still I am back in the saddle again now!

justshaggy our first appointment at clinic the mentioned IVF and I did not fancy it, I was 37 and a half and I ended up having IUI at almost 39. BUT I think you should go with whatever is recommended once you know all the facts and if you can afford it (IUI is much cheaper than IVF but less successful). I think you may need to look into the miscarriage thing at the same time, e.g. one of my friends was diabetic and that was why she had MCs. I mean I have no idea for you but your GP can run tests for some things I would imagine but I think they normally only investigate after three MCs, which seems not at all kind! But Cerubina said she was referred after 2 so do ask as soon as you can. The quicker you ask and start to get help the better (I think). Your GP should be able to tell you if you are eligible for NHS treatment in your area. You could also ask about other treatment and you could try IUI, ask your clinic about ALL the options and ask your GP to refer you.

Hi Poppy75 Yes, I have tried Agnus Castus, it tasted horrible, but I may try it again!

Cerubina thanks for your kind words. How are you doing?

Horton all the very best with the treatment and the wait.

Penguin all the best

MM all the best in Oz.

Isle and Gingerwine any news?

Penfold, Kiwi, Mojangles, Dueling, all the very best to you guys too.

Sorry it has been so long since I was last in touch. Just spending a lot of time trying to sort out work and also getting my head around the whole adoption thing. Even up to today was sort of hoping for a sudden miracle pregnancy but last night went to an amazing church service and just felt a sense of acceptance of the situation. Today my period showed up, so certainly for the moment the possible miracle baby is not on the horizon!

If anyone wants to stay in touch, feel free to email on my name italiangreyhound the age I wish I still was 39 (actually I wish I was a lot younger but it is 39) and that is at yahoo dot co dot uk so please do email me if you want to stay in touch; but don?t feel you have to, I will look in from time to time.

Love and prayers to all.

Hi all

Very conscious that this may be ill-timed and insensitive, particularly in view of amber's situation (sorry to hear that), and justshaggy's, and the process italian is going through. But just to report back in response to cerubina's inquiry - I did get a BFP last Sunday. Don't know if it's one or two yet (gulp).

Slightly rocky few days - very happy, obviously, but DH very unsure about it all and very dark and distant indeed to start with, which was a bit scary. I think he's coming round, or at least getting used to the idea.

I think there are other avenues to investigate, justshaggy, as others have said, but as has also been said, if it comes to it IVF isn't that bad physically (I would say, and am the biggest wuss alive). It's a bit of an emotional rollercoaster, but I didn't find it too bad on that front either all in all (though I know I would say that at this moment). You should get at least one free cycle, so perhaps worth a try in due course? They say you're often more fertile just afterwards too, even if it doesn't work. But it does sound the problem isn't getting pregnant so it's probably worth investigating the MCs first. Really hope for the best outcome for you.

Really sorry to hear about AFs - hope people are doing ok.

Oh, Levi, hearty congratulations! You clever thing! Well done. Hope DH cheers up. I think when you've been trying for ages the BFP comes as a bit of a shock. I'm sure he will get his head round it with time. How are you feeling? When do you find out if it is one or two?

Hi there, Italian, the sense of acceptance sounds very positive. Hope all continues to go well for you.

I test on Monday so it's all getting close but I am pretty sure I'm not going to be getting a positive. I don't know if I've convinced myself or if it's a real perception but I'm not feeling remotely pregnant so I think it's unlikely. I think, judging by my past two pregnancies, my breasts would be a lot sorer by now. So I don't feel any urge to test early! Actually, I've surprised myself with how much I seem not to mind that I am pretty sure I am not pregnant. I think we may have another go at IVF, but I do feel like I've accepted properly that we might just be a one child family and we're very lucky to even have that one. I was sure I'd be in a frenzy to test by now.

Hi there

Thanks! I'm feeling ok - intermittently a bit dizzy, and exhausted in the evenings, and not sleeping well, but not sick yet, thankfully. Boobs seem to be huge already (they weren't that small to start with) and generally annoying but I'm used to that! I'm going away for 9 days on Sunday so won't find out if it's one or two until we get back. In fact the clinic won't book me in for a scan until I've had another positive pregnancy test a week after the first one, which is slightly scary and reminds me how provisional it all is at this stage. So I'm hoping will be around 4th/5th June.

I am quite scared at the idea of twins, though I know I should be extremely grateful whatever happens (and it would stop the decision about whether to do IVF again to try and have a second child). I would rather have more than one, as all you people can relate to very well, but also feel at this stage that I'd be very grateful to have one or two. So all that is in its favour, but I'm afraid I'm selfish enough to think that it would be very tough and disrupt our relationship in a way that scares me quite a lot (given DH doesn't really want one child, and at the very least is hoping that we can still be the sort of parents who can go out occasionally, take the odd break when they're a bit older etc. - much harder with two and no support in the way of family anyway near).

Anyway, aware this sounds like prime whingeing when I'm just very lucky. I'll shut up now.

Very very best of luck with the test, Horton. Whether or not I felt pregnant was masked by quite an extreme reaction to the progesterone to start with - fairly incessant cramps and bloating - but I know there is a huge range of reactions or non-reactions. When the side-effects eased I then felt very well and not pregnant at all for a few days (to the point where I was sure I wasn't), so don't read anything into anything. Fingers crossed, anyway.

Great news LST! Hope your H settles in to the idea shortly so you can be excited together. I think mine would be the same - he really isn't that fussed if we have kids or not so the news that we definitely were going to would probably freak him out for a while. I hope you get the number you secretly want.

And good luck Horton, not long to go.

IG, best of luck to you now too, for different reasons. Hope you find peace with whatever route you decide to follow.

Day 6 of DR here and no period, which is irritating me. I'm on Suprefact this time rather than Synarel like last time (when things kicked off after 5 days) and I'm finding it a lot harder to do the sniffs - the dispenser is too big etc etc. Since Guy's only scan on Thursdays for FET cycles , the later this goes on, the more likely I'll have to go an extra week before transfer - which will arse up my holiday at the end of June! Ah well. Still keeping zen about it (to the extent that I keep forgetting to do my sniffs on time , which could explain a lot!)

Oh dear, Penguin, that sounds annoying re the potentially arsed up holiday. Hope the period arrives soon.

Thanks for good luck wishes.

I had no sickness at all with DD, Levi, so hope you are just as lucky. Dizzy sounds horrid, though. Make sure you are getting enough iron and rest. Going away for 9 days sounds great, though, hope you have fun.

I think even if you have two, you can still be the sort of parents who get a break now and again, you just have to make sure you get those support networks in place early on. I know people with twins who also don't have much in the way of nearby family but that doesn't stop them from having dinner occasionally etc or going out for a drink - they use babysitters and have done from an early age with their boys. OTOH, DH and I haven't been out alone together more than a handful of times in three years because of having a child who pretty much rewrote the definition of separation anxiety so I hope for your sake you don't get one or two of those!

Levi Congratulations, so pleased for you.

Horton all best wishes.

Have you guys seen 'Burn Notice', it is so fab, as is 'The Good Wife', but at the moment I am enjoying the Apprentice Junior, any other fans?

Congrats Levi, that's brilliant news. Hope you both get your heads round it - it sounds as though it is taking a little time to trickle down through your thought processes too. Don't go panicking about what twins would mean unless and until you get that "diagnosis", just enjoy the success of having got through it and look after yourself to give the baby(ies) the best chance.

I am feeling a bit crappy. I've just had lunch with a couple of friends and I don't know why I feel worse for seeing them but I do. Both have children, lots of talk about them, lots of mentions of how nice it is to get time away from them etc, and frankly I am fed up with hearing this crap when I would do almost anything to have children. Plus no acknowledgement from either of them that my childlessness is the elephant in the room and they know we are going for IVF but no recognition of that fact at all. I am just so fed up with being on the outside of life looking in. Just gave my pillows a good thrashing to get some rage out.

Cerubina sorry to hear that. I know what you mean. I know I am so lucky to have my little one but I also get jealous hearing how much people's kids fight with each other! Try and forget it, try and concentrate on your treatment and not on what is happening to other people. It is SOOOOO hard, I know, but for the sake of your sanity try and not allow it all to get into your head. And maybe if you feel it is right, if you get a chance when you are alone with a friend (I think it is harder when there are two friends or more) it might be right to say to a friend or friends how you are feeling. It depends if they are good friends, if they are it might be right to tell them. Just a thought. Sometimes it is not right to say anything as it is just too painful but sometimes it is right to say, your call. But at least you can have some power in how you choose to handle it. I think infertility makes you feel powerless, so wrestle back the power, you are doing all you can. Maybe your friends are just insensitive. BUT maybe it would help you to talk to them. Anyway, whatever happens just felt inspired to reply to you because I do really get where you are coming from. All the best.

Very strange couple of days - it seems I am pregnant! My what I thought was a period fizzled out even though I still feel a bit crampy. I did two tests which both came out positive. I am trying not to get excited as this happened before and then my period came but at this present time I am pregnant and I pray that it stays with me this time!

Amber! That is amazing news. Congratulations and lots of sticky vibes.

Cerubina, that sounds really tough. Is it possible that maybe your friends just don't know how to ask about IVF etc without seeming intrusive or are worried about upsetting you? Hope you are all right today.

levi Big congrats! Nothing insensitive about such positive news relayed so sensitively.x And congrats to you too amber - what a bag of roller-coaster emotions you must have experienced in recent days!

Cerubina What baffles me about some of my friends (not all) is how quickly they forget their own difficulties in TTC and waltz into that wonderful world some women have where TTC and babies is straightforward and sweetness and light, rather than this murkey world of hope and despair I feel I inhabit. But maybe its good they do.... Regardless, pillow-thrashing is a tip I might just take on myself to relieve frustration, rage and grief! My coping mechanism has been to opt out entirely from seeing all friends with babies and kids - so my life can be a bit lonely, but at least not filled with hurt.

Horton I'm due to test close to your time too, on Wednesday (well, according to fertilityfriend). But I have no self-restraint and tested yesterday and got an evaporation line which got my hopes up. Then tested again today to see, yes, defo a BFN. Doing that has racked my cool because, like you, I was feeling fairly sure I am not PG and was resolved about it. Than that damm line (even though it was a stupid 9DPO)!!. In my previous two pregnancies I had symptoms I'm not getting now either, so am trying hard to ensure logic rather than hope prevails. Will try very very hard not to test again!!

My news - after hearing what you lovely women had to say DH and I have decided to shake-up our GP and get referred no matter what she says. I will cry in her office if I have to, and I have no doubt that if I cry that DH will tear-up too because I've done that once before in her office and he did!! We tried this morning to get an appointment for tomorrow (stupid next day booking system), but despite being outside the door before the doors opened at 8.30, they were all gone. So next chance is Thurs next week, so I will get there before 8.15 on Weds and demand one.

Cerubina Thank you so much for the bit of research. x. I have that book which I bought after my first MC last year, but you reminded me to look again for fibroid advice. The Reagon book seems to confirm what the consultant who saw me said.

I have a submucous fibroid (only knew the proper name from the Regan book). If you imagine the uterine wall as the sea, my fibroid rises like a dome - some of it in the wall and some in the cavity. He said if I had surgery, it would leave scar tissue that would still leave about the same amount of wall space affected, so not really improve my implantation odds. He thinks that I'll be OK if implantation takes place in the remaining 80% unaffected. He also said he didn't think my two MCs were as a result of the fibroid. He said what would normally happen, is an emby wouldn't implant in that area and if it tried to, that month would be just like AF to me.

So .... whew, don't know what to think. He's not a gynae ... actually, I think he's an IVF expert .. mayeb that is a gynae??. Do you think I need to see someone else again?

On my risk of another miscarriage, ERI staff differ from Reagan on my risk. According to Reagan, after 2 MCs my risk of a successive 3rd rises to 24%. ERI tell me instead that I 'have no better or worse chance than any other woman despite two MCs'. When I pointed out that Reagan said risk of first miscarriage is very low, only about 5%, they said not in their experience and that MCs were very common in woman my age. Hard to reconcile the stats with the anecdotal evidence.

I think I might print these chapters for my GP, and highlight the relevant sections.

I HATE going to see my GP - always so stressful!!

Argh, step away from the tests, justshaggy. That way madness lies. And I speak as someone who took two years to conceive my daughter and has been trying for three and a half years since then. Honestly, chuck them all out and never buy another. You will feel much better for it. I promise you, you will know when it's sensible to buy one (never ever before your period is actually late is my mantra).

Well done on deciding to shake up your GP. Go for full on snotty sobbing if you can.

If I were you, I'd look up the guidelines for being referred for fertility investigations before you go to see your GP and print them out (and have fun with the highlighter). I think it is considered absolutely normal to refer after a year of trying whatever the age of the woman and after six months is considered reasonable if you are in your late thirties or early forties. And if no joy with GP, go and see someone else. Change practices if you have to.

Greetings from Oz!

Just wanted to post a quick message to say congrats to Levi and AmberC! I'm sending you sticky vibes from the other side of the world.

justshaggy, it looks like you've already got some good advice above. Not much I can add, apart from echoing the sentiment that you should speak to your GP as soon as possible and convince him/her to refer you for more investigations. Also, not sure if it helps, but when my GP first referred me on the NHS, I had my initial investigations with a gynae and was then referred to an IVF specialist.

Trip to Brisbane has been excellent. However, I can sympathise with Cerubina as we're constantly being asked here if we're planning more children. Fair question since they're helping us relocate and find us a house, but still... On the bright side, I start down-regging once I return next week. Paranoid about the BA strikes, volanic ash clouds, etc I've actually brought my drugs with me - just in case!

Am back from a two week family holiday - I DON'T recommend Agadir in Morocco - but that's why I've been absent.

Have very quickly scanned through the last two weeks, so no doubt have missed important news, but will just say great news Amber and Levi, and good luck to Horton for Monday.

I'm having the scan on Monday, when I'll be 13 weeks. We decided not to tell ds (nearly 4) until we get the all-clear ...

So good to be back.

My period seems to be starting. Ah well. I was pretty sure it hadn't worked (did a test just in case but was negative).