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TTC for 10 months and the rest! 10 plussers welcome! Thread 3 (the one where we all get our bfps!)

998 replies

lucieloos · 25/02/2016 14:00

New thread ready for us chatty ladies! If you have been trying to conceive for over 10 months pop in and join us. We are a friendly bunch!

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lucieloos · 25/03/2016 06:25

Aww banana I don't think your body killed the baby. It was probably a chromosome issue like you said before. I've read that is the most common reason. You could always add in immunes if you needed to though. It must be a very hard time for both you and DH and I'm thinking of you lots. Have you made anymore decisions for the next steps as to whether you will go for fresh or frozen?

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bananafish81 · 25/03/2016 13:33

Thanks lucie

DH gently chastises me for talking like that, and I know it's not my 'fault', but if the foetus was genetically normal, then whether it was my thyroid, or an immunes issue, or a uterine issue, or something else, essentially it would have had the potential to be a person...

We will absolutely, definitely be treating empirically w/ immunes tx next time for belt and braces. No question.

Have got my new thyroid results to take to see the Dr, as well as all the thrombophilia & level 1 immunes tests (which he agreed were both normal)

Won't know next steps until our follow up with the Dr in 2.5 weeks (4 weeks post ERPC) - I would definitely want to try another fresh to see if we can do PGS, and would be happy to go as soon as we possibly can. I know Dr said 3 months between stims cycles, but I'm not sure where pregnancy fits into that!

My ovaries have been rested for 3 months, so if we were doing a banking cycle then I don't know how soon we'd be allowed to go after the m/c

Hope you and DH have a wonderful easter with your little chick on board!

loopylou1984 · 25/03/2016 20:38

Epic catch up coming up!

Banana - I'm not really sure what my lining problem is. I got ohss on my fresh IVF and so clearly had tonnes of estrogen but lining still 7.3mm, and my blood flow is 'brilliant' to quote the consultant. The acupuncture lady is calling me on Tuesday to book my first appointment. She's Zita West recommended so must be the best!

Thank you Lucie and Banana for the drug explanations. I'm going to ask about it all, but I have a feeling they will make me have the tests first.
Consultant did actually mention vaginal Viagra last time, but he didn't seem convinced by it.

Do you have the link to DR Shers forum.

Banana - thank you for the offer of the Viagra. I may take you up on it, but going to see what they say at our appointment first.

Lucie - hope you're ok? Lovely to see all the bumsnet lot popping in to congratulate you Smile

Stealth - good luck for your FET. Try not to worry, there's no reason you should need immunes.

It'sme - that's rubbish, you can't cancel it and wait all over again. Can DH change his work plans?

Banana - sorry your body hasn't caught up and realised you're no longer pg. that must be tough. Please don't think you killed the baby. You didn't do anything. Hopefully the tests will reveal something that will let you have some peace.

DH and I have had a lovely day today, got up and took a spontaneous trip to the beach with the pooch, then we looked after our 20 month old niece this afternoon which was lovely but very tiring as I've realised how non toddler friendly our house is!
Not sure if I said, but review meeting is booked for April 15th so that's something. And once Easter is over I am getting back on the high protein low carb diet in preparation for EC. We told DHs brother today, and I have to say he is the person who reacts the best. No ott sympathies that make me cry or 'it will happen eventually' Just a 'sorry to hear that, just keep going' Honest and practical, I like it. Xx

Shellster52 · 25/03/2016 20:56

A huge huge congratulations to you lucie. You weren't too far behind my statistics of 11 IVF attempts and 7 egg collections, and I know how draining it is. You are a woman of sheer determination and truly deserve your BFP. I am so happy for you. And I can imagine it must feel like a bit of reassurance knowing you have frosties as a potential sibling down the line, rather than having to worry about needing to go through a fresh IVF in the future, especially with already being a poor responder now. Congratulations again.

banana, I know there is nothing I can say from an emotional viewpoint that can remotely help. From a practical viewpoint, while I haven't done lots of research into what you are going through, I was under the impression that with PGS, they don't/can't test for every potential genetic abnormality. I wonder if the same is true with 'tissue testing'? It was just on my mind and thought I would mention in case it is a question you might want to ask just in case the result does not detect anything. While I seemed to work through my IVF struggles the same way as you - by trying to be practical and research potential reasons, we both seem to have formed differing views on immunes. I have the experience of a fellow IVF patient at my clinic getting pregnant first transfer followed by m/c at 10 weeks which testing showed was due to genetic abnormality, then adding immune tx and PGS to future cycles and transferring only normal embryos which resulted in repeated BFN's. It just didn't make sense when the first cycle showed implantation was not an issue and now with her immune system and NPK cells suppressed, they were not implanting. So that experience truly makes me worry that immunes treatment is not a belts and braces approach, but rather can perhaps do harm if it is not needed? Again, I am definitely no expert if your Dr is suggesting otherwise, but I know the heartache of IVF failure after failure, and just genuinely worry and hate to see people go through that, so I feel like I should share and of course, you are entitled to believe otherwise and need to do what is best for you xox

Mamama31 · 25/03/2016 22:46

Lucie I have just over 6 weeks to go! We are having a boy Smile due 10th may! Still can't quite believe it. Sending lots of prayers your way, so glad to hear your news lovely xx

lucieloos · 25/03/2016 23:09

Aww mama that's amazing news I'm so happy for you! Hope your last weeks go smoothly and enjoy every minute with your little one when he arrives.

Shell, thank you, we are very happy although naturally cautious as it's very early days yet. If this one does work out then we will be in a very happy position to try again for a sibling with our 4 frosties. I had full immunes for this cycle and I do like to think they have helped. I have felt completely different this time compared to my first transfer where I felt absolutely awful from a couple of days post transfer but who knows they certainly haven't done me any harm though.

Banana, hope it's not too long until you can start again if you feel ready for that. Please don't blame yourself for the last one not working. Even if it was chromosomally normal and didn't work for another reason there is no way you could have known that. You can't be expected to have had every test under the sun before transfer. Unfortunately this business is all a bit of trial and error.

Sammy, glad you've got your acupuncture appt sorted and good that you have your review booked in as well and it's not too long to wait. The link to dr shers forum is here. I'm ok thanks, had a nice day out with DH today, we had a walk on the beach too and some lunch.

Hope everyone else is ok and enjoying the long weekend.

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bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 00:11

Shell thank you for your kindness - you must be nearly about ready to pop now?

You pose some interesting questions, have done my best to answer them - although until I’ve seen the Dr and had a more detailed discussion, will have a more solid plan of action!

Genetic testing

With regard to PGS, the old style technique did only used to look at a selection of chromosomes - new CGH testing now looks at the full set of chromosomes and is significantly more accurate. It not only identifies trisomies and other major chromosomal abnormalities, but ‘smaller’ defects such as micro deletions and duplications.

Now, it is not foolproof, particular as regards mosaicism, but it is certainly far far more accurate than embryo morphology

Anecdotally, the three ladies I know who had PGS found that their morphologically ‘top quality’ embryos were aneuploid, and that their supposedly poorest quality BC embryos were actually genetically perfect.

Similarly, it is interesting to note how many women have failed transfers of AA blasts and then success with their lower graded blasts

Certainly the statistics for clinical pregnancy and live birth rates with PGS at the clinic whose lab my consultant uses for IVF, are overwhelmingly higher than the non-PGS cycles

When it comes to the cytogenetic of products of conception, as I understand it, it very much depends on the quality of the tissue obtained as to the level of information the tests will be able to supply. As with PGS, the newer technologies are more able to discriminate between maternal and fetal tissue than the older karyotyping methods - once maternal cell contamination is reduced, the rate of false negative results drops. So yes, it is absolutely possible that if the testing shows the foetus was chromosomally normal, this could indeed be a false negative - however it is certainly the most accurate method of testing we have, and significantly more accurate than it used to be

Immunes
As regards immunes, I will be interested to discuss this further with my consultant. I have already had all the level 1 immunes tests (incl thrombophilia) which all came back negative, however I haven’t had the level 2 immunes tests. My Dr said that he doesn’t find the Chicago tests particularly reliable, as NK cells levels in peripheral blood testing aren’t necessarily an accurate indication of what’s going on in the uterine environment. He prefers to treat empirically, as he doesn't use Humira or IVIG, but uses the much more benign immunes therapies.

Treating empirically doesn’t just mean ‘we’ll chuck the drugs at it just in case’, but does mean making the decision to prescribe basic immunes tx on existing indications

For me, the areas that suggest there may be reason to think some level of immune response may be worth treating include:

  • TSH at the upper end (within normal range, but higher than many clinics would like for fertility)
  • high CRP levels suggesting possible inflammation
  • feeling cold/flu like symptoms in the days following transfer

Professors Quenby and Brosens do indeed argue that prednisolone may do more harm than good in women with very low levels of inflammation, as some inflammation is needed (hence the benefit of the endometrial scratch). However this is quite unusual, and especially where there are other markers for inflammatory response, prednisolone and intralipids are very low risk and can be hugely beneficial.

So, we will see what our conversation elicits, but as there is limited evidence of any deleterious impact of steroids + intralipids, and in the presence of soft indicators of a possible inflammatory response, I would feel confident that adding immunes tx to my next transfer cycle would be the sensible thing to do.

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 00:12

Thanks lucie for your lovely words - hope you and DH are having a fabulous weekend off the back of your wonderful news

Sammy great news about the acupuncturist!! She sounds terrific. And do let me know about the V-cream, I have two massive bags of it Grin

For me it wasn’t that I had low oestrogen levels, but the consultant said that the oestrogen receptors in my endometrium were less responsive - sleepy antennae he called them. So basically even thought my oestrogen levels whilst stimming were sky high, it was only when we added in a truckload more on top (progynova tablets) that we were able to get my sleepy lining to respond. He said he hoped oestrogen exposure would have a cumulative effect - I seem to remember Dr Sher saying something similar, I recall reading him recommending cyclical oestrogen therapy to a patient with chronically thin endometrium.

I don’t know if that’s the case for you, but can only say that mine did eventually wake up once we hit it with a sledgehammer dose of oestrogen!

MPP81 · 26/03/2016 10:36

Banana, I don't know anything much about immunes, and I can't say anything better than Lucie, Sammy and everyone, but I just wanted to add that I'm thinking of you, and I hope you don't have too long to wait until you can have another round. Flowers

How are you feeling, Sammy? I'm glad you had a good day with your DH.

Waves to everyone else! Hope you're all having a fab weekend!

loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 12:28

Thanks Banana, that's interesting. I think I might ask if I can stay on the progynova longer if I ever have to do another FET.

I'm actually feeling pretty rubbish today. Have woken up with a dodgy tummy, nausea and the arrival of AF. Someone on another thread said they had the same when the hormones left their system. Am bordering on taking an anti sickness pill, but the side effects are putting me off. Xx

lucieloos · 26/03/2016 14:49

How long do you stay on the progynova for during a fet then Sammy? At my clinic you have to continue taking it until either 12 weeks or af arrives. Sorry you are feeling rubbish hope it eases off soon x

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bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 15:09

Sorry you're feeling so rubbish sammy

My consultant said I was to stay on the progesterone till 12 weeks and the progynova until 10 weeks. Obvs as I had the ERPC at 10 weeks I came off them at the same time. I asked if I needed to taper off them and he said I was fine to just stop them. I didn't have any problems but possibly the preggo hormones might have cushioned the blow, as it were

I don't think it's advisable to keep on the progynova for too long a period of time before transfer, as I believe the quality of the lining is compromised after a certain length of time

But might be worthwhile asking about a cycle of oestrogen priming (ie 3 weeks of progynova and one week off to bleed) to see if the prolonged exposure to oestrogen helps to wake up sleepy oestrogen receptors? No idea if this would be beneficial in your case but guess can't hurt to ask?

I suspect the Dr will say I need 2 natural bleeds before we're allowed to cycle again, his seems to be the general consensus online (although obviously he might say otherwise). We had spoken about doing a monitored cycle with oestrogen support added in once a dominant follicle reached a certain size, to give my lining a boost so that I could at least be in with a chance of a natural BFP (with a trigger to make sure the follicle ruptures and to time intercourse appropriately). My lining was so crap in a natural cycle there was no way I could have conceived, but Dr said we could add in HRT but would have to be monitored so we didn't start it too early and block ovulation

loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 15:29

My clinic would have kept me on it up to 12 weeks, but I stopped both that, the estraderm patches and the progesterone upon the bfn. I'm feeling a little better now and have managed to eat something. My mum came over to look after me, and to walk the dog which was nice. I'm getting cabin fever now though, so might take her out again.

Thanks banana, I might ask about that. Although they are happy with 6.5mm at my clinic, so it might be a bit of a battle. Xx

lucieloos · 26/03/2016 16:15

I think you really need to do battle with them then Sammy! I really can't understand this 6.5mms. I researched linings lots before my transfer as wanted to make sure we made the right decision and I didn't see anywhere or any research that said 6.5mm was ok. What it did say was that it may be possible to get pregnant with lining of that thickness and of course some women do but the chances of success were significantly less. Even the NHS consultant told me their absolute minimum cut off was 7mm. Sorry if I'm being harsh I just really want you to get this bfp and find it frustrating that your clinic keep telling you it's fine and taking your money when everything points to it not being so good. There's lots of things to try and I just wish they would be a bit more proactive rather than just saying it's fine. Grrrr. I think what banana says about sleepy receptors sounds exactly right. You know you don't have a problem with estrogen levels but your receptors don't seem to be picking up on it.

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loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 16:27

Banana - remind me what your natural cycle lining thickness was?

Lucie - our next cycle is going to be a fresh one as have to use our NHS go now, so I'm not sure what to ask for in terms of drugs to thicken the lining? My last fresh I know I got to 7.3mm at EC but no idea how much it dropped after I started taking the progesterone as we abandoned and although they scanned me for the ohss it wasn't mentioned. And I didn't know there was a problem back then. I don't know what research they are using for their 6.5mm theory...

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 16:33

sammy my lining in a natural cycle never got above 5mm. So no way anything could have implanted.

My consultant says his absolute minimum for IVF transfer is 7mm - he said he has had pregnancies with closer to 6mm in ovulation induction cycles but for IVF he wouldn't risk transferring an embryo into a suboptimal uterine environment

In a long protocol fresh cycle it's possible to add progynova in for lining support at any time, because the pituitary is already down regulated so the oestrogen can't interfere with the follicle growth

In a short protocol (as I did) we only added it in once I'd been on the Cetrotide for a few days, so was only really a day before trigger I started on it

If you're at risk of OHSS I wouldn't imagine they would want to throw more oestrogen into the mix, in which scenario I imagine freeze all might be recommended? Xx

lucieloos · 26/03/2016 16:40

I'm not sure Sammy, the main thing I have heard about when your lining doesn't respond to estrogen is the viagara pessaries which dr Sher talks a lot about or possible estrogen priming that banana has mentioned. Have you had a hysteroscopy to have a good look around in there with camera to see if it throws up any suggestions?

There are some interesting articles from dr Sher about lining and viagra here and here

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loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 16:44

Banana - you know so much detail! Are you medical?
Yes, I think more estrogen for me would be a bad idea on a fresh cycle. I do not want ohss again, that's for sure. With the NHS we get 1 fresh, 2 frozen I think, and I'm fairly certain (based on past inflexibilities) that they wouldn't let me switch this for 3FETs so providing we got 3 or more embies I think we would still go ahead with transfer providing lining was at least 7mm. I've read loads about people having linings of 14mm - I'm so jealous!!!
I think some of this may be due to me being so slim, I'm bordering on being too low a bmi for NHS IVF - so am going to work on putting on some weight. It's going to be hard as (once all the Easter eggs are gone) I'm going to try to up my protein and down my carbs for egg quality. I think I might have to start having protein shakes! Xx

loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 16:46

Thanks for the articles Lucie - off to read now!
Banana - with the Viagra when do you start taking it, and how long for? Xx

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 16:51

Protein is brilliant for egg quality too! Most protein powder tastes like cardboard but I got some really yummy protein powder from Purition (can get on amazon as well as direct from them) which I mix with Greek yogurt and some honey and it's really quite tasty!

I'm also skinny, plus I was on the pill for years - both of which apparently are common for women with thin lining. I got my weight up healthily with loads of protein and good fats

Not medical at all!! I did a history degree and I work in business stuff haha. Just got the awful shock of a lifetime when we discovered my PCOS had gone and I was in borderline premature ovarian failure - so basically was desperate to understand as much as I could, so I could try and make sure I was being pushy and asking the right questions, and doing as much as I could lifestyle / supplements wise, because my prognosis with FSH of 17.6 and AMH of 1.5 was so very very dire

I had a genetic test done this morning to see if I do have this genetic marker that causes women with skinny PCOS in their 20s to transition to a state of severe DOR in their early 30s (tick) and who have very low testosterone (tick) and will see a marked improvement in their ovarian response after DHEA to get their testosterone into normal range (tick)

Will feel so bloody smug if I have solved the mystery of my disappearing eggs, hahaGrin

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 16:52

Viagra-wise Dr sher says start the viagra when you start stims and stop when you start progesterone, I think. The articles lucie has linked to will have the right advice, in case I've mis remembered!! Xx

loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 17:06

Banana - snap with the long term pill use too! Thank you for the protein piwder advice, going to check that out as the one DH has is vile!

Lucie - thank you for those articles, very interesting read. I'm now wondering if I should just concentrate on the lining, or still do the immune testing too. I guess if I don't and it fails I'll always wonder if there was an issue and end up doing them anyway?! Gahhhhhhhh! Too much to consider! Xx

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 17:10

The macadamia and vanilla one is really nice with yogurt - I'm not so much a fan of them as shakes.

There's a sampler pack you can get so you can try all the different flavours and see which one(s) you like before you buy a big bag

Yes knowing what I know now I wouldn't have stayed on the pill, I'd have got a mirena

Although maybe if I hadn't gone on the pill I wouldn't be infertile without fertility treatment - so I would have deffo needed the mirena to avoid getting accidentally knocked up! Confused

loopylou1984 · 26/03/2016 17:14

Just had a look, DH was shocked at the price and said his is much cheaper... But I said 'yes, and it's also gross!'
I think I'll just stick with the vanilla, some of the flavours in the mixed back look a bit unusual....

bananafish81 · 26/03/2016 17:16

The hemp one tastes like grass! And not the fun kind!!

The vanilla one is yummy. It doesn't feel like you're punishing yourself in that 'it tastes of arse so it must be doing me good' way!

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