TTC for 10 months and the rest. Ten plussers welcome. Thread 2.

[lucieloos]

We have been so busy chatting I've started a new thread. Welcome all 10+ ladies. Hope we all have some luck on this thread.

I'm ''working'' from home today, and have spent the whole morning reading everything ever writern on ivf I feel much calmer now.... Curtesy of the FF thread on Reprofit I found a local baby ions clinic which looks like it does scans. I live in winchester and can get to southampton easily. The local ivf clinics are snooty about supporting people travelling overseas but baby bond seem willing to scan any fanjo put in front of them (for a price).

Thank you for your support and patience Lucie it's been a massive reassurance.

Mmp check out this link for the ff chat on the clinic in the Czech that lucie has visited was this the one you wanted? I have learnt so much this morning from reading the other ladies stories.

www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=340470.490

My DH didn't do anything to help his SA other than cut down a bit on his cycling. He cycles a lot. Apparently this can have a big impact on SA but the nhs can't say dont cycle as it has so many other health benefits.

Ohh mine cycles a lot too Boris! He has cut down more now it's winter but it's his only hobby and he loves it so I've never asked him to cut back on it. They told me he would have to be a professional cycler doing several hours a day for it to affect fertility.

Glad you have found the link on ff. Everyone is so helpful and friendly. We also have a secret Facebook group that I can add either or both of you to at any point if you're interested. It is amazing and will answer any question you have. It's all completely hidden from all of your other fb friends too.

Lucie I'm quoting my consultant re the cycling but can't find much evidence to back it up. DH cycles a few thousand miles a year. I didn't ask him to cut it down but he chose to - it's also his only real hobby. He is now running regularly to make up for it tho.

Ah ok mine doesn't do that much, he is in to mountain biking maybe once or twice a week but hasn't been that regularly in the winter. I think it's all a bit hit and miss really as I know somebody who is a professional cycler and they got pregnant pretty quickly. I also work with several men who are heavily into road cycling but have had 2 or 3 children each. That's why I never really bothered mentioning it to dh as I couldn't see the amount he does affecting him that much when it doesn't for others. I've accepted this route now and have given up on trying things to get pregnant naturally.

Hi ladies

May I join? sammylou directed me here from another thread - sammy, thought it would be easier to pick up on the thin lining chat here, on the thread where you said you were hanging out :)

I’m 3 days into IVF #2 - first IVF cycle was in Sept/Oct, and ended up being freeze all due to lining and sample issues (lining regressed and was too thin for transfer, and in a double-whammy, we had to freeze-all anyway as DH was ill and we had issues with a fresh sample, so the eggs went straight into the freezer unfertilised)

Because of my poor ovarian reserves, we decided to do another fresh cycle to try to get more embryos to work with - the plan is to batch together whatever eggs we get this time with the thawed eggs from last time, and fertilise the lot together.

(We also have several hundred million of DH’s finest swimmers in the freezer as an insurance policy for EC day!)

My problems have been at various times with both the eggs and the lining. 5 years ago - before starting TTC - I came off the pill to get myself checked out as I had suspected there might be issues ‘down there’, as I’d never really had proper periods. One 9-month-long anovulatory cycle later, I’m diagnosed with PCOS - grossly polycystic ovaries, cracking reserves, just didn’t ovulate. So we expected ovulation to be the issue when I came off the pill to start TTC after we got married.

Except it turns out that somehow my PCOS disappeared, along with all of my eggs. Day 3 bloods showed at the age of 33 I had the reserves of someone in her 40s. FSH horrific, AMH pitiful (declined 93% in 5 years) and follicle count abysmal. FUCK.

So I now ovulate, but I’m in perimenopause. Oh, and I have shit lining in all my natural cycles, so nothing can implant.

I responded much better than expected in the first round of IVF, and got 7 eggs (6 mature) - not bad for someone with FSH of 17 and AMH of 1.5 (ugh!). The lining went backwards massively between my last scan and EC, so we’re not taking any chances this time - we’ll be adding in progynova to give it a boost.

So, now we’re going again. Somehow my antral follicle count has doubled since before my first round, so I’m keeping everything crossed I respond to stims again this time. And desperately hoping my lining plays ball and we can actually have a transfer....

sammy I couldn’t agree with you more about the BMI (and long term pill use) issue and lining. If I’d known it could have this effect, I’d have never stayed on it

Apparently I am the only person my acupuncturist (who has a wall full of IVF baby photos from her happy patients) has treated whose lining has got THINNER after having special electrostim acupuncture designed to help endometrial lining. Brilliant. Am a total weirdo apparently.

Anyway, I’ve wanged on long enough - sorry for ramble, I do waffle! Thanks for having me, hope that 2016 is a lucky one for us xx

Oh and trixie just scrolled back to catch up with the thread and saw your Q about excess folic acid. I asked my consultant about this, as I have to take prescription 5mg folic acid because I have epilepsy (the meds increase the risk of neural tube defects), and all the preconception vits all have folic acid in too. He said you couldn’t take too much - it’s water soluble so apparently anything the body doesn’t use will just get pissed out. I realise that for MTHFR (which in my head is always pronounced mother-f*er!) it’s about folate absorption, but just to say that I was told you can’t take too much, if that's any help...

xx

Welcome banana, lovely to have new people joining us! Sounds like you have had quite a journey so far. I am also banking but freezing embryos rather than eggs. Anything that makes it to a blastocyst goes in the freezer. We have 3 so far and I've just started stimming for our next round. Would love to get 2 more. We are going to transfer at a later date. I am due to begin NHS treatment in the next couple of months!

Hey banana! So glad you found us :).

I'm thinking of trying acupuncture, anything to try and increase the lining. And I'm eating as much as I can to try to get my bmi up!

Xx

Hi everyone,

Welcome banana to this friendly, supportive thread. So 3 days in means you are currently injecting? When will egg collection be? I have very little knowledge about IVF, but I need to read up because it looks like I'm heading down that road too. Your story is incredible, but sounds like you've got a good plan. My friend had complete ovarian failure at 31 so had to go down the egg donation route - at least you've caught it in time. Good luck with this round!

I had my appointment with the NHS consultant yesterday. It wasn't good news but it looks like we have a cause at last and it is male factor. All feels very strange and not sure what to think... Back in September when my partner first had his SA it came back as count 76 million/ml; progressive motility: 38%; morphology: 8%. Two months later in November (we only just got the results today) they've declined to count: 18mil/ml; motility: 18%; morphology 2%. They've recommended IVF with ICSI but said we should try a supplement for a few months first. She was open to us going to ICSI straight away but we were a bit shocked and had expected further investigations on me given our previous SA, so went for the supplement option. We'll give it 4 months (can't see it working) and then back in early May to progress IVF. The supplement is proxeed - anyone have any experience with it?

Interesting news re timings though - I could have talked her into referring us for IVF straight away, as she said she could waive the 2 year trying condition because there is a clear male factor cause and the waiting time is only 1 month! So trixie I reckon you'll be ready to go in Feb!

I didn't get the all clear entirely though. I have a high follicle count (left: 11, right:27) and my AMH is high at 31.5. She said that could indicate PCOS and I might not be ovulating. I said I was tracking my temps and seem to ovulate every month but she didn't really respond to that. She's prescribed me metformin to help me ovulate which I find a bit odd but I'll take it anyway.

All in all, I feel relaxed. There's little chance of anything happening in the next 3 months so I'm going to stop charting and chill out a bit. I always thought that the point we were told it was ivf or nothing I would feel devastated, but I'm fine. Think I'd prepared myself for an 'unexplained' diagnosis so figured ivf was the next step.

Sorry for the long 'me' post. Hope everyone else is doing well - I have a very good feeling about some BFPs on this thread in the next few months!

Star - the doctors really hate temping for some reason that I just can't figure out! Lol.
Great news that you don't have to wait, and now that you know your cause you can figure out how to fix it! I'm jealous of that.

I'm not sure I'm going to ovulate this cycle. I'm on cd13 and have not yet had a positive opk. This would be bad news as would most likely mess up timing for our next cycle, and we've already booked a holiday around it. Gah!!!!!!! Stupid broken body. Xx

Hello all,

Checking in after Christmas, I see some exciting plans underway for treatment abroad. Hope all goes well and there's some of us expecting our Christmas/new year babies for 2016!

I am having a bit of a down day, just had my 18th cycle of no baby. Got surgery on the 28th to see if there is anything they can do for my tubes- after that I'll be waiting for the NHS ivf.

Feeling deflated and generally sad, after we got married there was a buzz of excitement with all our family and friends sure to expect a new addition shortly, now it's got to the point where the subject is quickly moved on as people realise we must be struggling.

This is horrible.

Oh itsme, it really sucks doesn't it?
Hugs to you.
At least your friends have stopped asking. While it's a little awkward to think they may have realised your struggling, at least it means you don't have to answer awkward 'so when are you having children?' type questions. Xx

Thanks for the warm welcome ladies!

Thanks lucie - good luck with your cycle, hope you get some great blasts for the freezer! Our banking was enforced, not chosen unfortunately - although I did check with the Dr if we had to freeze-all due to lining issues again, if we could freeze embryos from thawed eggs. Apparently you can! I would be absolutely over the moon if we got enough eggs to be able to go to blast. Great news about your NHS cycle - your 2016 is shaping up to be really productive!! Unfortunately I’m not eligible for NHS funding - we haven’t been TTC 2 years, and it’s unlikely I’ll meet the ovarian reserve requirements in any case. Really frustrating as I live in one of the better London boroughs, that funds two fresh cycles. Oh well, maybe someone else can have my share ….!

sammylou yes, I’m throwing the kitchen sink at it! In Oct I tried every trick in the book to try and work on my lining in a natural cycle: L’arginine, baby aspirin, Vitamin E, acupuncture, viagra up my foof, raspberry leaf tea, hot wheat packs on my belly and keeping my feet warm - took myself off for a Day 13 scan, and, nothing. 18mm follie but lining was 4.6mm and not triple line :( My problem isn’t blood flow, it’s just I don’t produce enough oestrogen (I don’t get any EWCM and my CB dual hormone OPKs don’t pick up rising levels of oestrogen, they jump straight from low to peak), so I’m sceptical about how much acupuncture will help me - esp as it went backwards after my whizzy electro acupuncture treatment in my last IVF cycle!! Really really hoping some progynova will do the job. Consultant says we can support my lining in a natural cycle, so I have a shot at TTC naturally - just has to be a monitored cycle so we don’t add it in too early and interfere with ov. Hoping acupuncture and more does the trick for you!!

star big hugs, that must have been a shock after the original SA results. My consultant is v big on supplements for sperm quality, so I’m really hoping that they work some magic. Sounds like you may be PCO but not PCOS, if you ovulate regularly and don’t have wacky testosterone? The official diagnostic criteria need 2/3 of irregular or absent periods, biochemical or clinical signs of hyperandrogenism (i.e. elevated blood testosterone levels or acne / hirsuitism), polcystic ovaries on ultrasound. I think Metformin can be prescribed to help with egg quality, if the PCO is insulin related, so maybe that’s why she’s given it to you?

Keeping everything crossed for you - 3 month chill out sounds like a great plan.

And yes, I’m 3 days into my stimulation injections to try and make those follies grow. Although as I had an abortive attempt at down regulation before Christmas, I was injecting different drugs for 2.5 weeks in Nov - so my sharps bins are pretty full! Egg collection will depend on my response to the stims, last time I stimmed for 12 days, so maybe early week after next? Have to see if I respond at all!! Your poor friend, POF is such a hard hand to be dealt. I would def consider egg donation if/when we call it a bust on my own eggs, but feel lucky we’re at least able to give it a try

itsme big hugs, hoping the surgery can work its magic with your tubes

Hope you’re all having lovely weekends xx

Banana - see my lining is always triple lined, just nit thick enough. So I think blood flow probably is my issue. I'll contact the acupuncture place on Monday... It's just sooo expensive!

I'm keeping everything crossed for you for a thick cushiony lining, please keep us updated? Xx

Hello all!

Wow that was a lot to read! I'll try and comment as much as possible!

Lucie and Boris, I read your conversation with interest! DP doesn't cycle at all (though he does have a bike that's lived in the shed for as long as I've known him!). As I mentioned, his weakness for boil-yourself-alive hot baths, which he has given up. Thank you for the link, Boris. I'm back on my laptop Monday morning, so I'll take a look then, though it looks like it will be a while before we go down that route. We've had our discussion and we have a plan that I'm not totally thrilled with, but does make the most sense for us. We've decided that, with planning the wedding and my studies (which I do full time) we will struggle to fit ivf abroad in before May. So, our plan is this. We will continue to try while he uses fertilaid. In March, we will pay for another SA to see if this is having any effect. If it is, we will carry on trying and using fertilaid, if not we will swap to something cheaper. Regardless of that, we will start proceedings for ivf abroad in june as soon as we are back from our honeymoon. I've been pretty down about the wait, but it does make sense, and I suppose it isn't that long in the grand scheme of things. I'm just very conscious of time ticking on.

Welcome Banana! I've read your posts with interest. How strange that your pcos disappeared and your eggs with it! Did the doctor give you any kind of possible explanation for this? Hoping that your current ivf cycle is successful, and that you don't have to 'freeze all' again.

Star , sorry to hear of the mf diagnosis, but if you feel like I did, it's also quite helpful to know what the issue is. I've heard of proxeed but no experience with it in afraid. I'll keep you posted on the fertilaid results though. It's good news that the wait can be waived though, and that you've been given things to help you ovulate!

How are you doing, Sammy? Perhaps you could be ovulating a bit later this cycle? On what cd do you usually ovulate? Annoying that it messes with timings got holiday though. Why does nothing about this stuff ever go like it's supposed to?! Hopefully you'll get a positive opk soon!

So sorry you're feeling down, itsme. It really does suck. Hopefully there is something that can be done with your tubes, and the ivf wait won't be long. When DP and I got engaged, lots of people said to us things along the lines of 'babies soon then' and as we'd already been trying for about 5 months by then, I was quite hopeful and winked and said 'you never know'. I could slap myself for that now! The questions have tapered off, but I expect they'll resurgence in a few months, after the wedding and I sometimes catch myself planning the kind of things I'll say. for you.

AF arrived yesterday after the long wait, and ff did decide it had gotten ov wrong and readjusted accordingly. On to cycle... 19 or 20. need to check

MPP, glad you have come to a decision. Sounds like you have a lot in at the moment so may be best to wait until after the wedding before beginning IVF. I'm sure it will be here in no time!

Banana, great that you can freeze embryos after your eggs are fertilised! Hope the stimms are going well. Looks like we will be having collection around the same time. What protocol are you on?

Itsme, sorry to hear you are feeling down and are finding the wait a struggle. It's always the hardest part but hopefully you will have some good news soon.

Sammy, have you had a positive opk yet? Hope this doesn't mess things up for you. You've been through enough.

Star, fingers crossed for some good news over the next few months.

Day 6 of stimms for me today and feeling lots of twinges and stabbing pains down in my ovaries so hoping it means something is going on.

Lucie - fx the twinges are a good sign!

MPP - glad you've got a plan. It seems sensible to wait, although annoying I understand.

Still no positive opk. It's cd14 today and looking back at previous charts I've had my first positive on cd14 the most, so there's still chance. It's just weird that it came so close to positive a few days ago, but then no temp rise. I just have a feeling it's going to be anovulatory. I don't mind too much as I don't believe we would get oh naturally now anyway, as long as af still arrives on time. I once had a 42 day cycle. That would really mess things up. I think we'd have to wait an extra month if that happens. Xx

sammy acupuncture’s gotta be worth a try! I see so, so many women on the ‘thin lining’ threads on FF who talk about it as a miracle worker - hopefully it is the same for you! And hoping ov gets a move on for you

mpp congrats on your upcoming wedding - I can totally appreciate the frustration with waiting, can you look upon the coming months of IVF prep? Given the sperm manufacturing (sounds like engineering!) and egg maturation process both take 3 months, could you look upon this time as pre-IVF getting your bodies in good shape proactive time (like with the Fertilaid), as opposed to just spinning your wheels? Big hugs

Re: the case of my disappearing eggs - yep it is a weird one. At first my consultant (who was the head of reproductive medicine @ Barts in his NHS practice, and did this MD thesis & has published extensively on premature ovarian failure, so knows his stuff!) said ‘I’m stumped, and I’m not usually stumped’. It now appears new research into the fragile X gene (responsible for some cases of POF) suggests that there is a particular sub-genotype, where women who present as PCOS in their 20s, then transition into a state of diminished reserve in their early 30s (sound familiar?!). The clinic who’ve done this research call this ’burning out PCOS’, as the woman has essentially ‘burned through’ their supply of eggs in their PCO days, when they were busy madly recruiting follicles. It may or may not be that this is what’s happened to me - I’ve not got tested, as tbh it’s somewhat academic at this point: my reserves are significantly depleted, so it’s really about how we deal with it, rather than what caused it. Interestingly, this research suggests that women with this particular gene mutation tend to end up with very very low androgen levels (having got used to excess androgen levels in their ovaries in their PCOS days) - and will really benefit from pre-treatment with DHEA supplementation before starting stims. My testosterone levels were almost undetectable, and after several months of DHEA are now in normal range (although with sky high SHBG levels the actual usable testosterone levels are still pretty low - another marker of this gene apparently). My consultant was astonished by my response in my first IVF, and my follicle count has since doubled - so I have no idea of knowing if this is just my sleepy ovaries having been woken up by the stims last time, or if the DHEA has made a difference. But it seems I was a good candidate for taking it, and I’m hopeful it’s had some effect on egg quality, as well as perhaps my response to stimulation.

Bodies, eh?!

The ridiculously frustrating thing is that on paper, I did everything ‘right’. At 28 I had a fertility MOT which showed I had fantastic ovarian reserves, so no immediate cause for concern (apart from the PCOS). At that time, no one could have predicted I’d suddenly go crashing towards POF. The doctors in the US who’ve done the research on this gene, have introduced their own fertility MOT that as well as FSH/AMH/antral follicle count, includes testing for this particular gene - so even if you have fantastic ovarian reserve at that moment in time, if you are shown to have this particular gene, it’s very likely you may suffer from premature ovarian ageing in the future, and can make a more informed decision about your fertility (start TTC sooner, freeze your eggs etc.)

Where the fuck was this 5 years ago when I needed it?!!!!

I just hope it helps other women avoid going through what I went through.

lucie hoping the pains aren’t too uncomfortable and that it’s a sign of lots of juicy follies growing! When is your first tracking scan? What protocol are you on?

I’m now on an antagonist protocol (sledgehammer dose of Gonal-F, plus Cetrotide to be added in, prob on Tues after my first scan), same as last time. Although I wouldn’t call it ‘short’ protocol this time, as we had an abortive attempt at long protocol, with 7 weeks of down-regging (of sorts) before starting stims! Plan was to try long protocol to better manage my lining, as it’d give the Dr more control over everything, so I started on Buserelin in mid-Nov, with a view to starting stims on 1st Dec, and having the cycle done and dusted before Xmas. Best laid plans etc! Down reg scan showed I’d only gone and bloody ovulated whilst injecting buserelin, and couldn’t start stims until my ovaries were quiet. Unfortunately, we couldn’t just down reg me for another week, because that would have meant EC/ET Xmas week when the clinic would be closed, and Dr didn’t want to down reg me for another month. So I went on the pill to quiet the ovaries, and thankfully at my baseline on Monday he said he wasn’t going to put me back on buserelin to restart a long agonist protocol, and switched back to antagonist. First the problem was that I didn’t ovulate with PCOS. Then I ovulate but we worry that my sleepy ovaries wouldn’t respond to stimulation. Then apparently my ovaries won’t stop ovulating, and I don’t properly respond to suppression. You couldn’t make it up.

I am sorely tempted to ask him just to surgically remove my ovaries so I can whack them with great force with a five iron!!!

Sorry for epic post - therein lies the saga of IVF #2. Fucking hope there isn’t another incredible plot twist around the corner…

xx

Wow, it's busy on here

Lucie, I'm sure the pains are a positive sign, good luck with your scans this week!

Banana, welcome to the thread, lovely to have you with us though sorry to hear about your journey so far. I had absolutely no idea hat you could go from good reserves to POF like that. Thank you for your reassurance re the high dose of folic acid best of luck with this cycle.

Star - I know what you mean about coming to terms with finally having an explanation, sounds like things are positive overall though. FIngers crossed the supplements do the trick. I have pco but not pcos. I think I had 12 follicles on one side and 18 on the other when I had my scan at my clinic last year and similar at my scan at Kings. My AMH is very similar to yours (mind you that was in Sept 2014) and on the notes my clinic gave me it said that PCOS is something like 60 or higher.
If you are getting a temp rise every month then you must be ovulating. And I take it your 21 day bloods were ok. Will be interesting to see what they say to me in a few weeks. My consultant at the clinic said something about pco and insulin levels - she suggested watching my sugar levels (I was consuming quite a lot of sugar!) my glucose levels are quite high 5.6 (I can't remember the bottom of the normal range but the top is 5.5...) I am having a glucose tolerance blood test in the morning at the recommendation of my clinic- bit of a belt and braces approach.
Exciting that the waiting list for IVF is only a month- eek!

MPP, great that you have a plan in place. I think it is a very sensible plan and I was going to say the same thing as Banana re getting ready for IVF, I definitely think having time to mentally and physically prepare is a positive and in the meantime the fertilaid may well do the trick. March isn't far away and the time is going to fly for you with a wedding to plan! (hope you sorted out the guest list)

Grr Sammy, it's so annoying when our cycles decide to mess around just when plans have been made, fx for a positive opk/temp rise soon.

Itsme, it is tough as the months pass by with no BFP. Good that you have your surgery soon though. I always think that when there is something happening that is getting you a bit closer to the end goal then it makes things a bit easier as you have something to focus on.

Things are fairly quiet here, AF arrived last night and I have officially lost count of what cycle I am on. Have bitten the bullet and made an appointment for a consultation with Dr. Gorgy (an immunology specialist) later this month to discuss NK cell treatment. Can't believe I may well be starting another cycle fairly soon!

Wow trixie, dr gorgy! I've seen quite a few women go through him so will be really interesting to see what he has to say!

Sammy, hoping af is on time for you even if you don't ov this month.

Banana, I'm doing an agonist / antagonist conversion protocol as done by dr Sher in America. I was on bcp for 3 weeks and then on the last 3 days of bcp I started buserelin for a week until af arrived. Once af arrived I stopped buserelin and now take half a dose of Cetrotide everyday. Day 2 and 3 of stimms were high dose purgeon and then from day 4 onwards I dropped down a bit and added a little bit of menopur to help with egg growth. Previously I've tried antagonist cycles and also short flare. I've always managed to get a couple of blasts from each cycle but apart from my very first cycle (this is now my 4th) I haven't had great egg numbers. Coincidentally I had started dhea which I don't think helped much for me and I didn't leave that long a gap between cycles so Ive had a few months break, stopped dhea and am now trying this new protocol which is meant to be good for ladies with diminished reserve like myself. I would be happy with 2 more blasts to freeze if I can get them.

Oh and my first tracking scan is on Wednesday which is day 9.

Wow you ladies. Are all on epic journals, between you you could write a book on fertility issues, tests and meds.

lucie good luck for the scan. Really hope everything is properly on track. Thanks for all your advice.
trixie sorry for AF
banana I'm fascinated by your story. It's amazing you have such a knowledgable doctor on board.
mmp your plan sounds very wise. I'm sort of hopeing to get to Czech rep in early February if at all possible so I might have some helpful info for you to along with all lucies wise words.
Waves to sammy

I felt sick yesterday morning and exhausted and my boobs were massive, so today I did a Frer with fmu which was bfn at 11dpo. my bodies just being really mean to me. AF due tomorrow. Next cycle will be HSG and hopefully prep for Czech then I hope to start ivf the cycle after. Might be a bit over ambitious given I have really short cycles.
Sorry for crap grammar, on phone and entertaining DSD.

Lucie - good luck for tomorrow!!!

Boris - yes, we really could write a book! It makes me sad sometimes when I think about how much I know about all this infertility rubbish now. Why can't I just be the woman who gets pg the month after stopping the pill and doesn't even know what an opk is??! Sorry for the bfn, take it there's no more news on those symptoms? Xx

Banana - I'm going to book up the acupuncture!

I've finally got a positive opk!! Woo! Cd16 though so really late for me.

Fx for a temp rise tomorrow or Thursday! (Freak over here who ovs several days after first positive opk!) x