TTC 10 + months, part 14 (eek)

[GinSoaked]

A friendly, supportive thread for lovely ladies taking waaay longer than they ever expected to win their babies

Joy ? Sorry the beans had Trisomy 22, it must have been a shock to hear that. What a spot of bad luck. I read somewhere that at least 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage due to bad luck random mutations. My understanding of this particular mutation is that it is a very common cause of miscarriage and happens to a lot of people who go on to have healthy children.
Buzz ? I am thoroughly impressed that you jabbed yourself, and with anyone else who is able to for that matter. When do you go for the IVF?
Rabbit ? The break from all things TTC sounds lovely. By the sounds of it, you have big plans for the next while in the TTC department.
Pout ? Mr. P?s buns sound like they were quite good. Mr. Grouch is also good cook, which is nice. I can?t believe you tortured yourself with a show about someone who pops children out left right and center!
Critter ? I?m thinking of you mixing drugs and injecting while on holiday, I hope all is going well.
Free ? Welcome back
Euro ? I?m sorry to hear that your colleagues promotions are making you feel left behind, that is never a nice feeling.

Sar ? It sounds like your appointment with Dr. Tubes was fantastic. It?s amazing what a second opinion can do for the morale. I really hope your HSG is all clear, so you can start your new treatment path.
Sea ? I?m a bit [shocked] at how dirty the clinic sounded. I think I would have been as distracted as MrS by the state of the place. But a high success rate is hard to ignore and I think you?re right to be focused on that.
MrsD ? It?s all so close. You made me at the fact that they scribbled ENGLISH on your file. Here it is written on mine because I am Anglophone?
Madness ? The four poster sounds great! I have also never slept in one. How exciting that things will be ramping up for you soon.
Gin ? Sorry for the migraine. It?s really too bad you don?t think it has worked this time. Your brownies sound like they were sweet, but delicious. I have avoided looking them up because my waistline cannot handle more baked goods for the moment.
Nelly - Good on you for planning for next cycle. I hope everything works out well for you.
Numbers ? Welcome to the thread.
Fizz - Welcome and sorry about the miscarriage.

Hello to everyone I?ve missed. I?ve been kept busy lately after normal lab work hours with some freelance work.
My scones turned out nicely, I guess the proof is that most of them got eaten during the brunch. I guess it?s way too late to admit it, but I am into the house porn here too. I love looking at places I will never be able to afford.
As for the HSG today, there was nothing that looked out of the ordinary, which is good.

Nelly....?

Dr Tubes sounds great sar. What a helpful and interesting appointment.

buzz well done. The rubicon is crossed. :)

sweet that's great about the HSG result. I hope it wasn't too much of an ordeal.

Yay - another house porner!

Euro ? if money was no object, I think I would be up for going again pretty quickly. [it?s weird how quickly one forgets the nightmare!] But money is an object and I just want to have more info before I chuck more money down the drain. And yes I?m sure yours was chromosomal and just one of those things too.

Mrsd ? well the doc did say both had Trisomy 22 but in actual fact they didn?t split them up (they can?t apparently because of the way the erpc is done) so they only analysed one. I guess it was the big one . The second one didn?t seem particulary viable from the word go ? slow heartbeat and developing very slowly.
Sar ? I quite agree I don?t think this is behind our general infertility. It does point to one of those things but again not getting any frosties from 11 is highly suspect of something. I sound like a broken record don?t i?!
And it sounds like you had an excellent meeting. Like Nelly I found it very interesting to read all that. That?s very reassuring he believes you have a chance at natural conception ? I hope this gives you some hope. I know you had a hideous time with the hsg last time but by the sounds of it, it should be much better this time. I?m glad you can get that done quickly so you don?t have to hang around worrying about it. What operation would they have to do before ivf if they are blocked?
It sounds like you have found an excellent doctor who has got a positive and tailored plan for you ? which is the key in all this. Do you think you will get your NK cells testsed?
Sar ? I am so pleased you have some direction. I hope you feel more positive.

Nelly ? argh, sorry about the headf^ck cycle? It?s so crappy and I can?t hope enough that you it is something ironic going on. When is af due?

So there really is a wave of people going on to ivf very shortly: Critter, Mad, Mrsd, Buzz, Euro and Nelly.

sweet - that 's good about hsg. phew.

I suspect I have made it sound more exciting than it really is . My cycles just like to play silly buggers with me.

Joy I haven't been tracking ovulation, and my cycles have been just a little off since my last cycle (something like 42 days then 21 then 25). My normal is 27 which would have it due tomorrow or Saturday. So really spotting is just in line with that. I think I was just expecting a slightly shorter cycle like the last couple.

Great news about the HSG sweet :)

Euro - Glad to see Mr Euro is getting checked out as well. The docs do seem to focus a lot of us ladies but often seem to give just a cursory glance at the male sample I think. And yes - I am going to the same place where Joy went.

Joy ? In a way I am happy you have some answers now for the mc. Do you think you will be trying IVF again? Maybe after the karyotyping? I am really happy you are getting good care at St Mary?s. I always found them v good if a little chaotic sometimes. I saw Dr Davina White there. She was a lovely lady who was v understanding but she did forget to refer me to UCLH which meant there was a few months delay getting me started on AC but I don?t blame her at all. I should have been more on top of it. I have learnt (mostly from MN) that you need to push if you don?t hear back?Have you been back to ARGC for follow up since the mc?

Thanks for the tips about ARGC. I think Mr Sea is okay with it not looking swish but less okay with it being unclean. I have to say it did look like they haven?t vacuumed in a while. Anyway? I am going to keep an open mind. I only care about results and not much else these days.

Buzz ? Sorry to hear you have been feeling a bit wobbly. I hope you are feeling better. I know it?s all very up and down. So less than month until you go for the IVF. Not long now?

For me, I will do a cycle monitoring at the new clinic along with immune testing and then it will be IVF.

Mrsd ? I will take cramp over dirt any day. It?s funny but the NHS place I went to was much better in a way than where I am now. Like I said before, I am not focusing on the aesthetics, just results now. I hope this round is the one for you. I know exactly what you mean about fitting things in between work trips and holidays. I am already thinking how am I going to fit it all in if I commit to IVF and daily bloods.

Sar ? Dr Tubes sound great. It does make such a big difference when you feel you are being listened to. Not all fertility docs are like that at all. I might get Dr Tubes? details from you if you don?t mind. Is he London based? I might keep it for future reference.

Nelly ? Glad you found more reasonably priced drugs. I am going to have to look into this soon I think. I really hope you get the much talked about pre-IVF diff?. fingers crossed.

Sweet ? great news re no news about hsg.

Waves to everyone else. Happy Friday!

Nelly I'd so love you to get an ironic pre-IVF diff.

joy will you stick with the same clinic do you think if you do again or look at somewhere cheaper? I can completely understand wanting more info before you make the choice. Money aside, it is a hell of a lot to put yourself through.

Sea ? I was being seen by Dr White as well. She was very thorough and very good. She was very honest about there being so much they don?t know about fertility. I hate it when doctors just tell you anything and false info. If they don?t know, I would prefer to know. As such she had no idea what was causing our infertility! I also think the nhs puts you in to a box and so docs can?t really think beyond this box. Of course there isn?t the money for a thorough investigation but it?s frustrating when you are in the hot seat. Mind you , Dr White did more for me than my private gynae who was a charlatan !
I think I have a recollection of spotting the dirty carpets as I was going up the stairs. But where you go for hysteo and EC etc, the dungeon , seemed pretty clean. The changing room is something else though! It is a bit like being in someone?s very used house.

Euro ? i really don?t know about using the same clinic but only because of cost. MiL has muttered helping out but I?m not sure she understands the cost. She helped us out with IUI but it was £100 and that didn?t even cover a 10 minute appointment with the gynae! And that sounds very ungrateful which of course I?m not. The thing is the clinic really work on egg quality by tailoring the amount of drugs they give on a daily basis and the embryologists are some of the best out there. So having seen how our embryos performed even with them, I can?t see how I would get anything viable elsewhere. Or perhaps i?ve been duped in to thinking this by all the hype about their results. The marketing. And I conscious that i am sounding spoilt wanting to go there and I want to stress that I really am appreciative of how lucky we were to have the ability to go there in the first place. I am still seriously thinking about the abroad option as well. I look forward to hearing about Buzz?s experience of this. Are you sticking with your clinic for the foreseeable future?

Nelly ? have your cycles gone out of wack since ivf? I wonder whether they take a while to get back to normal. And still hoping for yuo.

joy I think it's kind of sweet that your MIL gave you a £100 to help you out, not realising what a p1ss in the ocean of fertility costs that is! Although of course every bit helps.

I guess the difficult part for your is that with Trisomy your bean just wouldn't have made it, so you don't know what difference all of the clinic's extra treatment made.

I'm a little sceptical about that clinic because, bar one poster on here that I can think of, who used them a few years ago and is a big fan, I don't know anyone on board or IRL who has ended up with a take home baby from there (results have either been BFN or mc). Perhaps I just know a particularly unlucky group because I know the stats are above average, so obviously they do get the results in some cases. It was never on my shortlist though, despite the stats, because the high-drug-uber-close-monitoring system would have tipped me over the edge! I needed somewhere a bit more relaxed... Also our thinking was that for the finite amount of money that we were prepared to spend, we would rather have several cycles than one as it feels a bit like putting all our eggs in one basket, even if there was more chance of that one cycle working than the first cycle working elsewhere, if that makes any sense.

We will stick with our clinc, for now. We were not particularly impressed by the upselling of ICSI and IVM during the post-EC sedation fog, but we stuck to our guns then and know that we can again. Also, I found the EC situation incredibly stressful and difficult and I think familiarity might help a bit next time - I know the nurses and the gynaes now, and I know where I am going and where Mr Euro will be, etc. And aside from EC which I would find traumatic anywhere, I found it fairly "easy". Four scans, one blood test, one jab, and ET in my lunch hour. Of course, the fact that it worked makes me look more favourably upon my clinic, although I am well aware that the success rate for natural is about 20% so statistically, only 1 in 5 cycles make it as far as we did, so the next couple of cycles could be very disappointing.

We have our next appointment in about 2 weeks and will hopefully go again in May. I'm thinking one or possibly two more natural cycles, and if I don't get anywhere with those, maybe a mild cycle in August with the drugs I have left from my NHS cycle (they go out of date in Sept).

Joy - I am glad to know Dr White is taking care of you. She is a good doctor. Im really fine with the clinic being a bit dusty. It's more MrSea's problem.

I'm sure no one thinks you are spoilt at all for wanting to go back to Dr T. Like you, I do wonder how much of it is marketing but I'm willing to give it a go. You might remember I wasn't so convinced a while ago and I did have a consultation at CRGH as well. I thought they were good but my decision now is more based on the fact that I want my immunes done.

Euro - I do partly agree with your scepticism re ARGC. I was exactly the same. I think it's really important to be comfortable with your decision. I have my doubts but at the moment I am just going along with it. I work for myself so I'm lucky to be able to do the intensive daily bloods (to some extent at least). I completely understand why you prefer the natural route though. That's partly why I went for the 2 IUI first. I really hope it works... happy to see you are moving on to the next one already and you seem to have a plan in place. You are absolutely right about sticking to what you want to do. It's important as I sometimes feel people take advantage of those who have been TTCing for a while.

One interesting thing did come out of my consultation. I asked quite a lot about immunes and if not getting sick very often might be a symptom (not really the case with me as I have terribly cold at the moment). The answer was not necessarily but things like hayfever and eczema (I have both quite badly) might be. Have anyone heard this before?

Euro ? i did ask Roy whether his mother would add an extra zero or two on to the cheque And that clinic is not for everyone. I liked the monitoring before EC but the monitoring afterwards definitely sent me over the edge. In fact i?m surprised i?m still in my job as i was effectively useless for 2 months of this year because I found it all so stressful. I became friendly with 6 people at the clinic and they all became pregnant. You bump in to them as you do blood tests up until 8 weeks and apart from one lovely lady who was 43 , everything was looking ok for the others. But for under 35, live birth rates is 58% so I obviously came in to contact with a particularly lucky group. My thoughts were that I wanted to do as few cycles as possible to avoid flaring up too often so i wanted to hedge my bets and try the place with best results. It was a pure gamble. Ha! So much for that. Anyway it?s difficult to know what the right thing to do is especially when you are unexplained. You could do an nhs round and get a day 2 transfer and get a live baby or go to the bananas clinic like mine and for it to all end in tears. As we know fertility works in mysterious ways.
But it sounds like you have a really good plan of action. The stats may not be relevant to your situation so you could very well strike lucky again the next time. I think it is so encouraging that you got pregnant the first time with natural. It really does bode well. And if you have the funds, it is definitely important to stay within a zone you are comfortable with.

sea I did stumble across that in my readings on NK cells. I think it is because eczema etc are auto-immune conditions so if your immune system is going crazy in one way perhaps it is in other ways. I'm sure someone like sweet can put it a more scientific way!

The talk of choosing clinics is interesting to me because I haven't really had a choice. There were two clinics here but one closed in the autumn so unless I wanted to travel 50km or so then there was no choice for me. As it's turned out, this clinic feels good for me so far. I see the same Dr every time, he is friendly and reassuring. The place is busy but organised and I don't feel like a number. I have no idea about their stats, they are not published openly here. I think if you get a baby then you are ultimately happy with your clinic. I am always a little sceptical about stats, and I wonder on what measure it's claimed that a clinic has the best embryologists?

I have my drugs! The chemist was normal, not dodgy back street. But my drugs go out of date at the end of April so I got them reduced by 30%, and then my health insurance pays 50% so I actually only had to hand over 175euro although that still made me gulp. I did get two free ice packs and a wadge of antiseptic wipes thrown in though Should I be concerned that the only language on the outside of the pack is Russian??

joy maybe your lucky group balances out the unlucky folks I know!

I wasn't dragged away from the office for many appointments, but I am not sure my place got much work out of me over those two months, either... My head was all over the place with first time IVF stress, followed by pregnancy excitement and exhaustion and then early scan stress and mc misery. I've spent more time on google than my docs over the past few weeks I think.

mrsd it would probably make life easier to just have the one clinic. You don't get much choice outside the big cities here, although people do travel. I know when I was seeing my immunes dude, one woman was coming down from Scotland for consultations! IIRC, she became pregnant and it stuck, so it was obviously worth it for her.

Thought I'd posted earlier but it is lost in cyber space. Mega quick - hurrah for cheap drugs MrsD! I've just spent £800 on mine and I'm hoping I won't need to use them

Spotting still slim to non existent. Keep thinking AF is on its way, and then I don't. Just did an arctic piss stick though so doubt I'm the ironic up-differ. So now might not start IVF till Monday

Back in a bit

Wow, super good value drugs mrsd. The clinic choice chat has been interesting. I went on some open days and ended up at the one geographically nearest us, but my main reason for choosing was the mild protocol. Everywhere else told me I'd need to down reg... Anyway, your clinic sounds nice.

Like euro, I now feel comfortable at the clinic, so would be unwilling to go elsewhere. Euro the familiarity does make it easier the 2nd time, deffo. This cycle, the same dr did most of my scans and the ET, which was nice. I felt like we'd built up a rapport, over my foof apart from him querying my ovulation

joy I was sorry to hear about your little beans, but in a way I think it's kinda good news? Sounds like just really rotten luck. You make lots of embryos and know you can carry a pregnancy. Re only having 2 blastos left, my clinic is of the opinion that embies do better in you, rather than in the lab, so it's possible that some may have survived if transferred earlier? However I know some clinics prefer to go to blasto, as they have a higher chance of working.

Welcome back sea! Eew at dirty clinic, but as joy has said, theatre will be spotless! My clinic has to shut once a year for a spruce up. Apparently they can't paint when embryos are about! I'm pleased you feel happy with the clinic. It is important.

Well done on the mashive jab buzzy . You are a brave lady! Does this one down reg? Any affects yet? Btw do you have to have counselling for DE. I think we have to have 1 sesh if we wanna use DS.

Oh pout that's utterly shite about egg sharing, particularly in light of the revised nice guidelines. It really should be on the individual's fertility rather than age. Fear of over stimming would put me off and I'd be much less likely to do so if I was older.

Hmmm interesting nelly. That's all I'm saying...

sar your account of your appointment is really interesting. Dr Tubes sounds ace. I'm so pleased he has given you some hope back and a sensible plan forward. Our consultations are always pretty shite tbh. I feel like the dr hasn't bothered to read our notes. But I do always come out more positive, which is good.

grouch yay for a good hsg result! What's the next step?

madness hope you're enjoying the holidays. It's nice that there's going to be an ivf posse - it's about time the Fred had some good news!

I'm pretty sure the FET hasn't worked. I feel exactly as I do in a normal cycle, with pre period pains etc. OTD with hpt is Weds, but I may piss on a stick this weekend, if I can bear it, so I can get my crying over and done with in the privacy of my own home! I had a small whimper last night at Dave. I just don't feel ready to give up on AC. I really thought I would as I did more cycles. Gargh, if only it wasn't all so bloody expensive. I either want to be pregnant or at the stage that cosmos is at, having accepted it all.

evening ladies

sweet you still sound like some mysterious secret scientist to me especially with the freelancing I'm glad all was well with your HSG

sea and joy there really is no excuse for not employing good cleaners, I'd be likely to take my duster next time I went :) I too wonder about the nk cell stuff, I am very rarely ill my level was just high though, I do worry about getting pregnant and my body rejecting it again

euro at the £100, i'm not sure how much MIL will give us but I hope its more than that, has mr euro had his investigations yet ??

mrsd yay to getting the drugs, that is a bargain and who doesn't want antiseptic wipes

nelly any news

sar so when do you start your next journey??

rabbit Hope you are suitably rested and over the jetlag

Well I went and told my boss, I nearly cracked but she was supportive in a strange kind of way, I also chatted to my colleague who had failed IVF and has now adopted, I had a cry and so did she (her cat had just died) poor locum phsyiotherapist (aussie male) walked in looked at us both and then walked out I do feel tearful unsure if its fear or relief and have had a few twinges round my ovaries

so i'm now thinking about day 3 or day 5 transfer, any thoughts ladies

hope everyone has something fun planned for the weekend

x posts with gin remember others have felt the same on their BFP cycle, no we don't have counselling, but I can go to one through work, I'm seeing my LC before I go.

Glad at least one of my posts made it to the thread.

I didn't have much choice about clinics really. There is an NHS and a private option in the east city and 2 or 3 in the west city. I had abandoned all of the west ones as too far away, however my fertility hypnotherapy lady said that one of the clinics in the west uses a satellite clinic in the east. I am so much happier with this option. They have a nice enough facility though not ridiculously plush; but more importantly they are more flexible and the consultants are not arrogant tossers. I actually don't care what their success rates are, for me it was so important I liked them. I have to go to the further away clinic for EC and ET but that's do-able.

Gin I am so sorry you feel it hasn't worked. I certainly took weird comfort in seeing a white stick before OTD as I wasn't pinning so much hope, but as it turned out my period arrived the day before OTD. If I take Buzzy's fanny candles as well this time I don't think I will have that pre-warning, so I will be POAS well before OTD.

Anyway I should get off MN as I am trying to ignore all pains and happenings or not in my pants . I am contemplating a cheeky glass of wine to stick two fingers up at the cruel taunting of mother-fucking nature. Charming, aren't I???

Busy weekend ahead for me so might not get on much, so have a good one everyone.

Buzzy it will likely depend on how many embryos you get. As I only had 3 eggs they wouldn't even risk going past day 2. As others said the more you have to play with the longer they will leave it, to really "test" them before they go in. So far as I can tell, putting the same embryo in at day 3 or day 5, then day 3 would be better as your body is a better environment; but if you don't know which ones to put it by day 3 you are best to go to day 5 to see which are the strongest. I don't think you can decide before you know what the numbers are.

Long story short - it's too soon to say

thanks nelly :)

Buzzy - You made me lol at the idea of me being a mysterious scientist. To demystify a bit, I work with pathogenic bacteria and have dabbled in host genetics and the freelance work I do is translations/editing for other scientific groups. I would follow Nellys advice and the clinics when it comes to egg transfer.

Gin - I?m really sorry you feel the FET hasn?t worked. I completely understand wanting to cry in the privacy of your own home. The next step for us is a SA for Mr. Grouch and another appointment with the specialist that I haven?t scheduled yet because I am delusional and hoping I will get pregnant after the HSG. My Dr. wants to get a handle on my progesterone levels and send Mr. Grouch to a urologist.

Sea - I have to say I am not an immunologist, so take what I have to say on this subject with a healthy grain of salt.
What I know: some allergic diseases can cause you to create antibodies against sperm and that eczema is an autoimmune disorder, but these are not necessarily related to NK cells.
What I have read: NK cells are important at the initial stages of pregnancy for placental development in mice which makes some researchers think this is the same for humans.
As for why there might be problems with them: some research suggests NK cells may recognize ?unusual? receptors on the surface of the outer layer of a blastocyst (called a trophoblast) causing issues, but really none of this is definitive.
My two cents: I think what it all comes down to is that the immune system is incredibly complicated and everyone is a bit different. Researchers/scientists simply don?t know enough about the immune system as a whole or even this specific problem to be able to suggest definitive treatments. I guess I just prattled on to be incredibly unhelpful and say: Yes, NK cells can be a problem, but there may be other immune cells involved and that immune disorders or immune system dysregulation may or may not indicate problems with these cells.
I really hope that made some sense.

Waves and hello to everyone I have missed ? I am still cramped up from the HSG and am taking it easy tonight with Mr. Grouch.

Ohmygodohmygodohmygodohmyfeckinggod, I got the faintest of faint lines on an Internet cheapie. I'm sooooo scared, but have never got this far before, so a bit excited too. I keep thinking I'm seeing things and the line isn't really there. It is so so faint (surely it should be darker at 13 dpo?) and I have period and serious ovary pain (ectopic?) Dave says I'm not to think about it until otd

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! As I clicked on the thread I was just thinking that you must be coming up to test date.

Ovary pain will be the corpus luteum doing things. Obviously keep an eye on it but I would have thought it would have been too early to have pain form an ectopic?

buzz how are you doing? I love that you scared off the aussie male with your emotions! (BTW, it wasn't me with £100 from MIL - it was joy).

I agree with the others re: transfer - it depends on the clinic practice and the no. of embryos. I had no choice with just the one - they shove it back asap (day 2) which I was fine with. I found like I sort of missed my egg. It didn't seem right that it was sitting in a petri dish on the other side of London!

sweet I hope the crampiness doesn't last too long.