Clearblue Fertility Monitor Support Group Buddies Vol 4!!

[boba82]

Time for us to move home again ladies!

Hello ladies. Sorry its been a while since i posted but i thought id give it a break for a little while whilst i was a bit fed up.

Lovely to see all the new faces - welcome :) this is a fantastic thread with lovely supportive people.

Well on day 23 now, am 3po according to FF - ovulation was late this month by three days but at least i did ovulate i think, last CP i had at the beginning of the year messed up my cycle a bit too so its only to be expected on 2ww now but not holding out much hope in that dept. I will wait till the 31st to test which is the latest ive ever waited (going out that night though and will be 13dpo) to test whilst ttc this time but dont want to get caught out with early testing again as its just so disappointing!

Good to see familiar faces here too, (Ljg)anytimenow great new name! Hope you are feeling better now. Good luck with those tests next week.

lychees good luck for this weekend - will be posting more often now so will keep up with your potential news, really hope its good!
Waves to everyone else.

Keziah i can really hear the despair in your post :( how utterly unfair and shitty that was of your GP to get you this far down the road only to pull out the rug from under your feet. I know there are rules and they have to abide by them but i cant understand why this wasnt pointed out to you earlier. Apologies if ive missed anything but i really feel so bad for you and your DH. I dont for one minute believe that God doesnt want you to have a child but i am sorry your journey to having one is much harder than everybody elses :( This is probably not feasable but just asking the question? Would you consider or be able to think about going abroad for ICSI treatment at all? Just thinking that the issue for the NHS is that they wont treat your infertility as you have had depression but if you fell pregnant by yourself or through your own means that that would be that - perhaps look into treatment somewhere out of the country if you could possibly afford it? fedup's post is very good advice, perhaps when you have had a little time to lick your wounds some of the points will be worth looking into and expediting? I hope your as ok as you can be x

Hi Lychees ooooh how exciting I will keep everything crossed for you! I really hope you get your BFP at the weekend .

Thanks for the info I will check with DH have just texted him as he had a blood test recently and i'm sure he had it done at our doctors, hopefully he did!

He's just texted back, he had them done by the nurse at our surgery. I can't make an appointment with the nurse before i've seen the doctor can i? I'll have to see the Doctor first and then hope i can get an appointment between days 2 and 5 is that correct!?

What a pain in the bum feel stressed about it already! x

I will get my Peak tomoz at its day 15 and thats the day i always OV (if it hasn't been day 12) so BD'ing on Tue, Wed and tonight, tomoz and Sat..... if that doesn't work then i'll be really , he, he! x

Knackered Cow sorry didn't see your post, i was looking at page 16 as the last page, thanks for the info, feel a bit better, knowing the exact procedure. Should i mention all these tests when i go in so they know, i know what i'm talking about, just worried about being fobbed off, although i'm sure they wouldn't be that mean!

I do ovulate as i use the CB Digital Ov tests each month and have always got a positive on either day 12 or 15 every month.

I will wait and see, gonna book an appointment for 1st week of Nov, i will know by then if this cycle has been a lucky one or not.

Will keep you all posted! xxx

Hi Emma. OPKs don't tell you if you are ovulating necessarily. They attempt to predict the LH surge that occurs prior to ovulation to allow you to time BD appropriately.

If you do ovulate, and you have a regular cycle then they can be useful BUT here's the caveat

"a rise in LH does not show if there are problems with the rest of the cycle. Women with polycystic ovaries, for example, tend to have high levels of LH all the time."

Therefore, you could test positive on an OPK but be anovulatory.

Sorry, I don't mean to worry you unnecessarily, but fertility monitors and OPKs do have their limits.

A blood test is much more indicative of ovulation.

After ovulation, the empty follicle on the ovary produces progesterone.

"The level of progesterone is significant: it rises sharply a few hours after ovualtion, and stays high for several days, but is seldom raised in women who have not ovulated."

See what your GP says first. Our GP started investigations because she agreed to refer to the FC. If your GP suggests booking in for bloods then maybe interject with "Am I right in thinking that I'll need to book in for that one 7 days before my period is due so that the progesterone test is done at the right time?"

keziah Have you looked at IVF outside the UK? Apparently in some cases it is cheaper. I know someone who went to Turkey!! Don't give up.

I am blisteringly angry for you. I know its not a popular sentiment but I have major issues with the NHS. I am not British and my experience of medical care prior to coming to the UK gave me "unrealistic expectations", what one UK doctor told me. Basically, I was used to getting a certain standard of care and was shocked at the frankly sub-standard and dehumanising experiences I have had time and again since coming to the UK.

I may be in the same situation as you, ironically. In both my two failed PGs I had weird symptoms - like panic attacks. And on the first occassion I slipped into a depression because I thought there was something wrong with me not feeling 'happy' when I was PG. As soon as the MCs happened, the symptoms disappeared. In the 2nd PG, I had no depression because I knew the symptoms were PG related.

I thought I was sensible by seeking help - just in case it happened again - but in doing so found myself bounced between EIGHT different health professionals - all of whom wanted to knwo my life-story - evenutally ending up at a psychologist even though the the first psychiatrist I saw had agreed it wasn't psychological. And then despite letters being sent to the psychologist by my GP that I didn't need therapy and it was for CBT treatment, I ended up spending a couple of months in weekly sessions where I was asked things like, 'what was my relationship with my parents like'; and 'what was I like as a teenager'.

All of this while my state of mind was totally fine and I felt healthy. It freaks me out that this is all on my records, and some moron at some point in the future - who probably won;t even know me - has power over my life. I can honestly say I would NEVER recommend conselling to anyone in the UK after my experiences.

I am now in line for IVF, and also had to fill in that form that you did, and because I have such deep skepticism and such a low regard for the lack of intelligence that seems to go on in NHS decision making, I told my DH that I feared some stupid twit would look at that cock-eyed process I went through and rule against me having IVF.

And now you say this has happened to you...! I feel so angry on your behalf - I can only imagine how you must feel, because I know what that would do to me too.

My DH has asked me to ask you: was it your GP who made the decision, or did you GP relay information and it was the clinic who made the decision obased on what she said?

I am right at this moment trying to get an appointment with my GP to make sure she doesn't pull this stunt on me.

I urge you to not give up keziah. Take some time, but do think about other places. Do you want me to find out about the clinic in Turkey? The women I know of who went there is now expecting twins!

oooh thanks KC didn't realise that, what would I do with you?! You're my fountain of knowledge! I am hoping that i'm in the 80% that it takes 18 months to get pregnant, i'll take your advice on board on when I go i'll know exactly what to say. FX

Hope everyone else is ok - nearly weekend again! Quite night in with DH tomoz and then BDing! [hwink] he's gonna be sick of me by Saturday!

Then Wedding in the The LakeDistrict all day Saturday should be nice

What is everyone else up to, anything exciting? [hgrin] xx

I type so fast i make so many mistakes! Sorry all! x

Hi ladies sorry have only just got back to the thread, sorry to hear your news keziah. I don't know what to say really, it just all seems a bit arbitrary and unfair.

I would like my stats added to the list please.

Anyone else thoroughly sick of this week and beyond grateful tomorrow is Friday?

Hi Notnearlyasblondasiwas I'm very glad its Friday tomoz, i always find the week leading up to Ovulation a bit stressful, worrying will we actually BD on the right days etc, etc, will be glad when Saturday is here and i just have the 2WW to think about! x

Choccie - Nearly didn't post the truth as so - but reading your post I am glad I have. If ONE other person benefits from my nightmare then I hope it is helpful. Choccie my Gp fererred me, known the whole process, getsa letter from alocum consultant who is chasing my gp who is diabolical at paperwork, gp goes defensive and causes problems. IT IS NOT MY FAULT EVENTS HAPPENED in the past - but it is how I make my future that does. I:

• no psychologist ever
• no talking therapy on nhs

- no consistant psychiatrist to do medication, as they all leave

Gp not talk to me or raise concerns. Husband seen twice now and actually gave him a print out of HFEA guildleines which he did not know. All I want is support - am not asking for mental health support - they don't want t give me that, just stop me getting pregnant with a loving husbad. I can have affairs and they can't stop that. but my church would not be happy with that someone!!

Will read all posts sensibley after by brother's weddin, where my role is too look after their toddler and for my hafl-term with him,nephew = as obviously failing a welfare of child check doesn't stop me doign this, or teachign, or running residential kids camp with others. Etc.

Fedup - thank you. This gp referred me for testing 11 months ago (problem is antibody factors in sperm) and has never said there was an issue. I have repeatedly been asking for treatment on the nhs - 6 months ago any hope of treatment was removed and no contact from them since. There is little treatmetn in middle of country where I live. If I am licky I can get 12 sessiosn whith a psychologist but that has been refused. So how do I get someone to talk to, smile and say all positives so 2yrs down the line when my eggs are older and worthless I may get to pay a fortune for treatment.

Sorry - I have had diagnoses, labels - YET no treatment ever but they are prepared to stop physical medical treatment as I don't qualify for treatment.

I understand where you are coming from - me work with someone eventually from nhs - smile, say all that I am doing to improve and they may eventually tick the box. Then got to find new hospital who would treat me as I would not be someone anyone would tough, yes? so somewhere miles away, as a teacher means only cycle once a year as a teacher then, or someone with bad results so less likely to work.

I don't mean to sound angry - but this is your legal advice?

Choccie the hospital meets to discuss each case, lying on the form not helpful. The hospital decide ultimately adn Gp has an input. My Gp does not want to support me, yet he does not need think I need counselling - he never has committed his budget to give me any. Antidepressants yes.

So if you have mental health issues, hope you have a fanastic support system - I know of one person hwo had 3yrs of weekly sessions with a psychologist in London. Here a basic trained nurse is more than I am allowed. And it will mean nothing, as I havt to tick boxes and meet targets.

I would like to state tat:

• my employer knows everything, work with kids
• I am indudated from babysitting overnight for kids of frineds - well the 2 that know the trugh of me
• I have Occupational Health and CRB for everything

I for over 20yrs have been a team leader or co-leader of charity residential camps for children all over the UK.

--- welfare of child is the issue? My manager said you'd never know I had depression and at work I am blal blah of niceties.

THis blocks private funding - so rules out abroad too. But summer holiday is a long way to wait for travel abroad - am 35.

The needles were all there with first dose and told no.!! Waiting for others to say oh you may be ok is not helpful for me to pin my hopes on.

Have two choices - church prays (well they are and no move forward) or I find another source of sperm that doens't invovle hospitals. No male friends or relatives that can ask. More website hunces if follow that routs. You see gp can stop Fertility Clinics but not affairs, using men for sperm or donor sperm done by self. Yet he woudl say "she would not dream of acting like that."

No support forward. Childlessness, loneliness, all friends totally ignored me - as they are so happy with children they don't want to spend time with someone they can't be bothered to spend time with unless they need a babysitter.

Bye - I am no longer worthy to be on Clear Blue Monitor area as you are all talking about treatments or peaks and highs and I cannot talk about that - as I am unsafe to be around young children and may well make a comment that woudl hinder your own children it appears.

Take care, but keep your own special babies away from anyone with mental health issues as they are not allowed fertility treatments unless they have husbands iwth right jobs or a gp that is human,

Hello everyone, I'm so glad it's Friday!
I've been having a bit of a horrible week, although nowhere near as bad as some of you ladies have been having!

According to CBFM I had my ov high last Friday/Saturday which was exciting however I'm finding this week hard. I had the worst rage earlier this week. Monday, Tues, Weds I was in a constant state of red mist and yesterday and today I am on the brink of tears. I think the emotion of it all had rather got to me. Another 5 days to go until AF due - at this rate I'll be in pieces! Anyway, I'm on holiday next week (staying at home) so hopefully that will keep me calm while I wait...

Fingers crossed for everyone x

Keziah You sound so distressed I really don't know what to say.

I don't know where you live, but it very much sounds that your PCT realy doesn't want to spend funding on mental health or fertility. In that respect, I think you are extremely unlucky. There is something called IAPT (Improving access to psychological therapise) available in some PCTs Follow this link for this website if you want to see if it's available in your area As your GP sounds ill-informed and disinterested, he probably wouldn't have mentioned it even if it is funded.

I am presuming that you are well aware of computer based CBT and have tried Moodgym? It's not as good as face-to-face, and you might not get on with it , but maybe worth a try?

WRT your GP I fully appreciate why you don't want to change Practice, but quite frankly his incompetence is astounding and it may be something you want to consider in the future.

I had a look at your thread on the mental health board, and in relation to what birdietimestwo said, I think legal support might be a good idea if the appeal fails. I think she's right that they have made a huge jump is assuming "you are likely to cause significant harm to a child". It's interesting that a single paretn could receive treatment. I am wondering whether they should have considered your DH further? With two parents in the relationship, surely, even if you ever were to become severely depressed (and there is no indication suggesting so) the care of a child would not be affected because there is a second parent who would be able to become the main carer to the child.

Do you think they stopped treatment because your GPs submssion was so late and they didn't have time to consider it with the full assessment? I am wondering if that is why they need to wait until January so that they can look at all the evidence together? In this case, surely there is hope that they will come to the decision that a child will not be at risk and commence the ICSI soon?

You mention that you feel very lonely and that your friends are avoiding you. I think people are generally insensitive and sadly, infertility and mental health are both taboos that people don't talk about. That doesn't make it right. Are your friends aware of how you are feeling? Sometimes people misguage the seriousness of a situation. This might be so in your case. You are very high-functioning with your depression and it seems very good at hiding it (many people with depression are - Winston Churchill lead the country through a war but was plagued by his "black dog")
It's difficult to ask for help from a friend, but maybe, just maybe you could think of somebody who will spend some time with you and you could give them a ring?

I feel so angry, upset and frustrated on your behalf. There is so much misunderstanding, stigma and discrimination surrounding mental health even though 1 in 4 of the population will suffer from a mental illness at some point within our lives.

Sorry for long post.

keziah I went and looked at the HFEA guidelines again after reading your post, which very clearly states that they need to check if the person seeking treatment poses "serious" risk to the child. And it also says somewhere that 'subjective' vague judgements need to be avoided. I think you make a good point, that if they think you are such a risk to your own child then they should stop you working with other people's children too, and clearly they haven't so it all seems like bullshit to me.

I haven't lied on the form, but I did comment on it to the DR who first saw me about IVF, and he used an example where they denied treatment to someone who claimed they didn't have a drug problem on his form, and the guy's GP came back and said he was on a methadone program. So yes, I can see there are cases where it is necessary to check up on people, but you have been very badly let down.

You might not be ready to hear this, but I am nearly 40, so considerably older than you, and I've been told I have a 30% chance of success with IVF (i.e. higher odds than someone in their 20s trying naturally). So... you are NOT too old, and you do have time.

All I can say again, is don't give up. Don't let one moron make a decision which will change your whole life for you. But take some time to recover and then come back if you want any help with writing letters for appeal etc. Honestly, if I were in your shoes I'd be contacting journalists about this. It's shocking.

Unlike you I was given loads of therapy, and that was a disastour, but I am worried about what's in my records. I have made a telephone appointment with my GP to discuss the whole issues, and will come back and report here. DH has also said that if this happens to us, we're going to demand a face to face meeting with the psychologist I saw, my GP and the clinic all together to get to the bottom of it. So even if you don't feel like posting, keep reading. I might be wild with anger next week, or I might have helpful advice.

All the best to you keziah.

Crossed posts with you knackered ... you give sensible advice.

DH and I were talking about keziahs case last night, and what is really bizarre is when you go for IVF treatment you get offered counselling in advance because the process can take its emotional toll. So there is a level of understanding that people might struggle with the process - does the fact that they might become depressed through IVF disqualify them as parents? (I declined the offer after my experiences with NHS psch services).

And also, just reading Mumsnet, the emotional ups and downs everyone experiences with TTC, and so much worse if, like keziah you've been trying for six years. DH commented that they've denied her the one thing that could address and fix her depression!

So often on MN people advise others to 'go for counselling'. I can't help wondering if we need to be advising people to go for private counselling, and to be sure that they mental health is kept off NHS records as far as possible because it seems it can come back to haunt you. I bitterly bitterly regret being sensible last year and asking for help after my MCs.

Choccie you are so right.

Has anybody else read Robert Windton's A Child Against All Odds? I highly recommend it.

One of the paragraphs I read really rings true, so I am going to quote it.

"Infertility fequethly has a severe impact on people who suffer from it. Although a few infertile people are not greatly affected by being childless, for the majority it causes serious anxiety. The anxiety is often followed by depression, loss of self-esteem, feelings of pointlessness and/or loss of libido. Some infertile people even think of suicide. For many others it represents a deep threat to their most precious human relationships. And, as our children are our immortality - for most of us, our most important achievement, irrespective of our success in various walks of life - so childlessness can cause utter despair"

Choccie Your DH hit the nail on the head. They are denying Keziah the one thing that will aid her recovery.

Also I agree with you WRT private counselling / CBT. Going privately keeps it off your medical record. That said, a course of CBT is phenomenally expensive. Where I live it's around the £1,000 mark.

Keziah, I don't know what words of comfort to offer you. However, please don't let one DR make you think that you are unfit to raise a child. DRs are often [sadly] very wrong. The simple fact that you have been longing for this child for such a long time shows that any child of yours would be so loved/wanted. What more could a child ask for?

MissLolita Interesting you mention your rage and emotional feelings, I know not everyone's the same, but my friend who's 8 weeks pregnant, during her 2WW she said she felt irritable etc, hopefully that's why you're feeling the way you are! FX - we could be in the running for 2 BFP's in the next week! xx

I got my peak today - day 15, so got 2 weeks to wait from tomoz and then i'll know as well, we've tried really hard this month, will be gutted if it hasn't worked xx

I feel for you Keziah, I really do. I do not agree with the system as it stands at the moment. One of the primary reasons is that huge generalisations are made in order to categorise people into types. This type of classification leads to a whole margin of errors. The sole reason for doing this is to make it easier for the health professionals and as you've discovered keeps the costs down.
I agree with everything that Knackered and Choccie have said. It is sound advice. Your limitations to access counselling are many, created by the very people and organisations who should be facilitating your desire to be a parent.These obstacles, in my mind can be counter acted directly, head-on, by demystifying their fears: by working with children. Create job opportunities for yourself, working with children. You enjoy doing that, it's productive on two fronts, gives you more experience and enjoyment (hopefully will stop you feeling depressed), and more importantly flies in the face of the prejudices and beliefs held by those who are challenging your decisions.
You are so right when you deduce that by the time you have been diagnosed as fit to be a parent a serious amount of time will have lapsed and you will be older then. But like Choccie pointed out, it's only a couple of years at most, and at the end of that if the doors to achieve your dreams are opened, then who cares how you got there? I know it's hard to see at the present moment, but two years is relative, in the grand scheme of things.
Trust me, I sympathise with all you are going through. It is a tough journey: an uphill struggle for you. But once you get there (and you will), it will be all the sweeter when you look down from your mountain, moreso than those who had a plain and simple walk to the climb that you had to endure.
I hope that you can, when you reflect on all of this, come out feeling more proactive towards your situation. It IS hard. It is easy to be defeated at this stage and take a backseat. But you are worth more than that. You deserve better. Therefore, you will fight for you, your child/ren and your dreams. The journey and the terrain will be hard, but the goal is worth every second. I know these are but hollow words. But you need to be in a positive frame of mind in order to make positive life changes to attain your desires, what's more your RIGHTS. It is people good, honest, decent people like you who help to change and make laws. All that can wait. You need to go through the system in a way that will prove to others that you are genuine. It is not fair, "normal" people do not have to do this. They just go on and have children. This thinking is correct, but it doesn't serve you well. Your frame of mind needs to be so that you are trying to channel all your energies into gaining what you so rightly deserve. The world and its topsy turvy rules and prejudices can go sing for all you care.
In essence, what I'm trying to say is you go for it:whichever route that you may have to take. That is what needs to be done now. Once that has been achieved, then you can go back and tackle the obstacles. I apologise for the lengthy post, but I am convinced that you are a genuinely nice person desperate for a baby, and I don't want to see you sidetrack your purpose in life, just because a few penpushers who barely know you from Adam, have made the decision that you are not eligible to live your life the way you choose to. It IS going to be a struggle, but you will get there. Unfortunately, a lot of note taking is also discretionary, and I pray that someone at some point soon, crosses their paths with yours, sees you for the person you are, and prioritises your case. To ensure that you come across as a favourable candidate then, it would be fantastic if you could keep a porfolio of the work you do with children. It is a start, and I hope it's not long before you have a lovely baby in your arms.

keziah I haven't managed to read through all the posts, but just wanted to say - I am a mental health professional working in the NHS, and what has happened to you does not sound right at all. If I can offer you any advice, please let me know. You need a different GP for a start, I think!

Hi kezia: sorry, just re read your post again- had family visiting didn't get a chance to read properly. Ok. As you already work closely with children, then you have a case whereby you can challenge your treatment. You need to have a representative who is going to be asking the questions on your behalf, putting them to the PCT in question. And most importantly getting you the go ahead for the ivf you deserve. So sorry to hear of your distress and the way you have been treated. Your citizens advice bureau will be able to advise you on the best legal advice you can get in your area. Failing that, I would make an appointment with your local MP: at his surgery(which is the route I would personally take, as this is where things will get moving for you a bit quicker: he will channel it down the most efficient way). HTH. Apologies once again for being so rushed earlier .

Hi Fedup. Sadly for Keziah it's not the PCT that is refusing to fund, but it is under HFEA Code of Practice that Keziah is being refused treatment. (Have been reading ferociously all day as also have had depression in the past and am worried I could be in a similar situation). All FCs in the UK have to abide by the code, regardless of whether they are private or NHS funded.

The Code is in place to guide clinics through the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008.

There are two criteria under which treatment can be refused:

8.15

"The centre should refuse treatment if it:

a) concludes that any child who may be born or any existing child of the family is likely to be at risk of significant harm or neglect,

or

b) cannot obtain enough information to conclude that there is no significant risk."

Keziah will need to find out under which criteria she is being refused treatment.

At this stage, she has the right to appeal (which I believe she is doing) before a final decision is made.

Sadly, her MP won't be able to help much.

Keziah, I can't begin to understand but I echo everyone's sentiments - please don't give up - you are worth it and I am a great believer in positive feelings.

Emma, thank you for your kind words. I have also had some big hulking great spots and I am lucky enough to never get spots (literally never, even as a teenager - v v lucky with skin!) - I'm trying desperately to not symptom spot and to recognise that up until this month dh and I haven't been BDing at the right time (I'm useless at the egg white thing and ovd on 18 which is way after I thought i was; also I checked and last month dh managed to get 36 stitches in his head and severe concussion at day 17/18 which rather prevented BDing - if anyone wants a good laugh about the cause let me know) so I'm almost convinced that I should reset the clock and have this as 'month 1'. I say almost - not yet actually convinced! Anyway, Emma, good luck - get to it girl!!
My parents are over from Spain next week and i am spending 5 days with them which will no doubt feature a number of questions...

Bless you all ...

1. Sorry for bad typing in last long post of mine, I was crying too much!
2. Thank you for understanding. Made work today bit easier.
3. Am so sorry if it has raised any concerns for anyone else. But worth getting support from Gp in advance!

Yes, KC -your facts are very correct, I too am like you, read and get information.

UPDATE - My dh seen gp (handy the receptionist having to give emergency appointments without knowing why) Wed and Thu. Wed was horrible, he was very defensive. Saying "timing was unfortunate - I needed more than 2 weeks notice to reply to FC." No apology, no acknowledgement of distress caused - due to everyone being concerned about litigation, not care about humanity!

Thu he went again - this time armed with printed copy of HFEA, the criteria of which the Gp was not au fait with. Mm!!! Dh was under strict instructions on thu to not sound complaining at all (only against fc, suck up to gp etc) and asked for support. Only good thing is he has learnt he cannot send a report from the psychiatrist who does my antidepressants as that is passing the buck and puts unfair pressure of the FC. And because I have been asking for help as wanted to be a good Mum and have good pregnancy, had to be honest for once. Gp has said he needs time to think... but my Dh stated that if Gp says I am a serious risk to a child then he is making a serious allegation against me!!!!

Go from losing confidence - I can't get pregnant naturally, not meant to be a mum, to defend us and to fight gp ---- if he stops FC then he has been negligent in allowing me to work with children (teacher, lets be honest - with outstanding rating as well if you want the truth, for last 3 years - I turned down AST status as wanted a baby!!) for past year.

Anyway - thanks for all posts.

Anyone near testing for a BFP = want something to make me

KC: the code of practice is an act passed in 2008; can be challenged in westminster and ultimately in the House of Lords. Two years, things need to be updated, especially in cases like Kezia's. These are test cases which make things easier for other people in kezia's position-who probably have not come forward. Even if it takes a while for it to come to the attention of the lawlords, then it's worth it in the long term. I truly hope that the appeal that kezia has launched is successful, but for this to go to a higher level in parallel will be welcomed by many. The Bill definitely needs revision and fine tuning in my opinion. There will not be many people in kezia's privileged position in terms of concrete evidence:she works daily with children,who thrive under her care; and she is being denied her own:how unfair is that?