Charters Anonymous : Volume 2

[chocciechip]

Volume 2 starts here ladies!

Hi all,

Got back from my fertility appointment and though you might like to hear answers to some questions I asked. I've cross-posted this from another thread:

PRE-SEED: Consultant said he hasn't heard anything - either for or against this. Didn't seem to have heard of pre-seed. So I am really not sure about this

HIPS IN AIR AFTER SWI: Not necessary to do this at all.

LYING STILL IN BED FOR A WHILE AFTER SWI: For a short while, but probably not as long as one might think. Ejaculate apparently first comes out 'coagulated' and then 'liquifies'. By the time it liquifies, he said most of the active sperm will have headed off in the right direction anyway. He said the legnth of time it takes to liquify varies for men, and you can figure out your length of time by getting your guy to test a sample and time how long before it gets runny. (Basically, if you start 'leaking', its OK to get up then).

HOW OFTEN TO BD: He said research had shown that the first few sperm that come out of ejaculate are often the good ones. So, provided count is healthy, doing it often will send more of the good sperms up because more sperm that get to 'front of queue' can also 'leave the building' (my words, not his). But doing it often might reduce volume so still maybe not best for men with low count.

EWCM: He said its a very inconclusive area - so much so that they don't run a bunch of tests in relation to it anymore at ERI. He said they found that women who apparently had totally the wrong CM still managed to conceive, and women who the right CM, sometimes not. i.e. a lot of uncertainty around what is the 'right' and 'wrong' CM and how deeply significant this is with actual conception. More important than this, he said, was having sex during the fertile time regardless of CM.

STRESS: The only impact stress has on conception is through changing hormones and preventing ovulation. I consider myself seriously worried and stressed about TTC, but I know I am ovulating, so I am obviously not as stressed as I think. And there is very little evidence it has any impact on MCs at all.

SPOTTING BEFORE AF: Most spotting takes place between the neck of the cervix and where the womb lining, which is thicker, meets it. i.e. not at the 'business end'. so its not automatically a luteal phase defect or a sign of progesterone dropping. He said it is very rare for spotting to be coming from the 'business end' (but I am going to be checked anyway because I have a fibroid and that could be what is causing mine).

CHARTING: I took along all my charts. He confirmed that charting conclusively indicates whether a person has ovulated or not in a cycle. Didn't think I needed to chart though because he said by now I probably knew my fertile time pretty accurately. So it depended on whether I really wanted to or not.

Oh thats great! thanks for those choccie I was thinking now I don't need to ask as most of those were on my list for tomorrow BUT it would be interesting see if we get the same answers wouldn't it? so I think I still will.

Do you mind if I link to the BESH thread as there are a couple of posters over there that are also going to the FC tomorrow. I think they would be interested in your post.

hippy boo to AF. :( but at least there are positives like your LP getting back to normal.

orchid i know its weird isn't it? V perplexing

wow chocciechip - very informative

I'm getting quite nervous about my apointment tomorrow, am terrified he'll say "bugger off, I told you not to come back till March"

Saladbomb - have you got an apt with a specialist tomorrow too? I popped my head in on a random thread over the weekend, and it was mentioned that I was one of 4 peeps with an appointment on the 9th - you must have been one of the others! [GRIN]

Hippy - sorry about AF! You did make me chuckle at Dolly Parton asked for her boobs back!

yep, there seems to be a rash of FC appointments this week culminating in 4 tomorrow. Must be the consultants all coming back of holiday and deciding to do some work ;-) Am trying not to get nervous and need to write a list of questions (might cheat and print out choccies)

A couple of random Q's for you girls!:

How quickly during your cycle does your cervix begin to change? EG, is it quite quickly nearer ov day or is it a gradual thing over a few days.
I'm only on CD8 and I'm sure my cervix has begun to feel squishier where I normally ov CD14/15

Also, I ordered a large batch of cheapie internet OPKs and was a bit surprised by them (they're tiny, and you have to wee in a pot). Have any of you used or can you use them as a normal mid-stream test, or would they be ruined?
Don't really fancy keeping a pee-pot in the bathroom!

I've only been checking for 1.5 cycles but my cervix changes daily, it can feel soft and then get firmer for a day or so before going softer again just before ov. and last month it stayed within reach and then shot up 2 days before ov, whereas this month its stayed lowish (i am due to ov tomorrow) I think what i am trying to say is that there are no 'rules' and it will probably take quite a while for you to see a pattern. Sorry thats not much help!

re opks, sorry, you are going to have to keep a piss pot I'm afraid :D you need to make sure you don't get wee over the line and i don't think you'd be able to do this directly. Mine don't seem to be working this month but I have been drinking a lot more water so think my wee must be more dilute.

Um, hello. I am one of the aforementioned BESH's (waves to salad) & would just like to thank Choccie for posting those questions & answers.

I'm off to the FC later, so we'll see if I have anything else that may be of help to add.

Thanks to all of you for the hoos and hisses at my horrid old Auntie Flo

Good luck to everyone who has appoitnments. Thanks for all the info choccie it is interestng to hear what these so called specialists say. How can he not have heard of pre-seed - everyone on the TTC threads has heard of it

I use the internet cheepie OPK's. I keep a very small pot in the bathroom cupboard and have become a dab hand at not peeing on my hand now!! I agree that you can't pass the max line so would not be able to pee straight on to the stick. they work for me, I usually get a faint line and then the next day I get my positive.

This month i am going to try the Sperm Meets Egg plan (yes I thought that sperm meeting egg was pretty much a given when trying to get preg too!!) Basically someone on the over 40's told us all about it. As soon as you get a positive on OPK you have to become a mad sex siren. This system would only work I think if you have pretty regular cycles and have a rough idea when the positive OPk is coming. Plus it helps if you usually do get a pos on an OPK. If that sounds like you - google Sperm Meets Egg plan and have a look

Can't answer the question about the cervix I'm afraid. I haven't got into checking cervix yet. Don't know why, guess I just don't like the idea of prodding about too much (what a wimp )

Love to all.
xx

Hello, am back from FC. Have written a long (prolly too long ) a post in BESH thread. Pliz to help yourselves if anyone thinks it may help, x

Also back and have been told with no preamble and little explanation that we will skip clomid, IUI and go straight to IVF bit spun out by it tbh. Have booked another SA test for DH then back again in 3 weeks. No HSG or any other tests for me, I haven't even had an ultrasound. Bit about this.

Plus FF is screwing me about but i think its just an anomaly low temp on day11 thats thrown it out and expect to get temp hike tomorrow. Plus OPK fail this month.

www.fertilityfriend.com/home/303fb8

Hope IfAt had a better time (although not sure how trip to FC could be 'better')

Well I'm back from my waste of time appointment with the FS and got pretty much what I predicted "the MC proves that you are not an infertile couple, come back in March, but I don't expect to see you"

I am so upset, really feel like having a good sob, but hate crying in front of DH.

The FS is lovely and is really easy to chat to but I really wish I could share his optimism!

The fact that we've been TTC for 3 years counts for nothing due to the MC in March. He said that our local IVF clinic wouldnt touch us unless we had 3 years of unsucessful TTC. So thanks to the mc, we are back to square one!

He recommended chucking the OPKs and ditching the charting a they can both cause un-due stress and suggested SWI every other day from CD7.!!!!

Apart from than that, we're on our own.

He did mention that there's only a 30% chance of conceiving each month (funny how all the little scruffs fall in to the 70% category just by looking at each other - sorry! that was rather rude of me!)

So, in summary, if we didnt have the MC in March, we could have been well on our way for IVF right NOW. Now it's been put off for another 3 years.

It's back up to mother nature!

:(

Oh If I am so sorry to hear that - that really seem very very unfair. There isn't much else I can say to help except I really feel for you. (and I now feel rather selfish for complaining) BUT I hope that he is right and you do get pregnant before March. 3 years seems incredibly long tho I thought NICE guidelines were 2 years? (or is that only if you are over 30?) Mind you I don't think thats really fair either expecting you to wait an extra year just because you are in your 20's :(

salad Sorry I am quite confused on this thread and can't for the life of me remember everyone's situation. Can I ask why they have said to go straight to IVF and not do IUI? My sister conceived with IUI and it was a lot less intrusive than IVF. What are your circumstances???

ifatafirst that does seem so unfair. How many weeks were you when you MC'd?? It is just so ridiculous. Perhaps you should have just not told your doc you were preg and quietly MC'd at home without telling anyone. 3 years is a bloody long time to wait. And I'm guessing that getting preg once in that time is not much of a concelaton for you and your DH. Who has time to have sex every other day from day 7 FFS!

hippy i really don't know, he seemed to be saying that because DH's sperm count was low that IUI wouldn't work, but that goes against everything I have heard. I am not sure if its my age (nearly 39) that is also a factor as obviously 3 round of IUI would take me to 39 and thats when IVF success rates start to drop off sharply. (but that just seems like an arbitrary number, its only a few months!) Anyway DH is having another test a week monday before we go back in 3 weeks so I am really hoping things have improved as they change their recommendation. His count was 18mil and recommended is 20 mil and his motility was 7% which is actually rather good so I am a bit and wondering if we should switch consultants, he was a bit of an arse yesterday tbh.

What i really want to know is that if we go straight IVF and it doesn't work then does that mean we will have blown the chance to have IUI as that really doesn't seem fair.

My sis was 39 and her DH had low sperm count. Not sure how low but I know that when they went on to try IVF for their next baby they had to have IXY (where they have to select just one sperm and inject it into the egg). So it must have been quite a low count.

They got preg on their second go at IUI.

I know everyone is different, but I agree with what your saying. If IVF failed would you be able to take a step back to IUI - worth asking.

God, why are we trusting these old farts with such important subject matter - I saw a consultant in December who told me it would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY I'd get pregnant again - been preg twice since then (just need a decent egg). He was an arse too - (I like that phrase )

i know hippy I really cant fathom it. Going to insist he gives us a better reason at next appointment, especially if there is a 'no going' back policy. I was a bit knocked sideways by him just coming out with it and I felt he was a bit patronising 'i know best' although that may have just been because he wasn't telling me what I wanted to hear.

Another aspect might be that one PCT close to us has just withdrawn all IVF funding completely so I wonder if they are trying to push people through fearing that the same thing will happen. If thats the case then I guess thats a good thing and he wouldn't be able to say that. But thats just a theory.

btw wishing you 3rd time lucky on getting a 'good' egg!!! bloody arse consultants what do they know. :o

saladbomb It may be your DH sperm quality thats the issue, but if its not I can tell you what I was told. When DH and I had our appointment it was precisely to explore options in between 'doing nothing' and 'ivf'. Our consultant also recommeneded we save our money and go straight to IVF, OR just carry on doing nothing.

The reason why: ERI did a HUGE study (he emphasised it was very big of its kind) which he went through in detail. The gist was it was based on a large number of women classed with 'unexplained fertility'.

One third were told to go off and keep trying for six months, the other third were given fertility drugs, and the final third had IUI.

He said the final outcome showed that there wasn't a significant difference between the three groups, the pregnancies were more or less the same for all groups. He explained why they did it: i.e. they assumed at the beginning that IUI would give sperm a headstart, so should yield slightly more pgs; and drugs force ovaries to produce more eggs, so more chance of one sticking. That didn't prove true in the final results though.

Consultant said the other thing they found though is the different levels of 'satisfaction among women with a high level of dissatisfaction from women who were told to 'do nothing' .

So his best advice, was go away and do nothing for a while OR go straight to IVF - that there wasn't a step in between these that increased odds for 'unexplained infertility'. There's nothing to stop us trying privately, but he said it would be better to save for IVF which DOES have increased odds over IUI and fertility drugs.

It doesn't mean IUI WON'T work for you (they did get some pgs in the study) just that the average odds are that 'doing nothing' and 'IUI' are six of one and half a dozen of the other (my terms, not his).

I've started to think of IUI and fertility drugs as remedies for specific indentifiable conditions. If you have PCOS, it might be different. Or low sperm quality perhaps (but I would have thought they'd recommend ICSI then ... because surely odds of successful IUI with low sperm is even worse than for normal folk as per study...?). But for 'unexplained infertility', it's different. But ask your consultant to spell it out for you in relation to your specific results.

What I did come away with, after holding my consultant back for ages with LOTS of technical questions and delving into studies, is what an unknown field it is and how much they can't 100% explain. The consultants accept the 'randomness' of it in a way we can't, because we feel desperate and 'doing something' takes away that helplessness, but some of what we end up doing is probably just a placebo, and good results might have happned anyway just because that's what nature is like.

My feeling for DH and I now is that it probably will happen, and I found the 'science' weirdly reassuring and confidence building, so we're giving it another six months more (approx) before we go straight to IVF.

Sorry - that was a bit long, but I hope it helps.

No thats brilliant choccie It does really help and sort of confirms what I was thinking. Thanks for taking the time to be so detailed. I have also heard that IUI doesn't increase chances more than really focused SWIing unless it is to combate a specific problem. So yes it makes sense if there arn't VERY bad problems with DHs sperm and I am oving then IVF would be the obvious choice. I just wish he had explained that properly. I am a bit like you, I like to know exactly what is going on and why. I suppose they must get a lot of people who just go 'what ever you say doctor' but unfortunately (for my consultant :o) I am not like that. I need answers!

And it also doesn't explain why they won't give me an HSG or even an ultrasound. No one has mentioned 'unexplained fertility' yet and as far as I can see they can't possible know that it IS unexplained without examining the possibility that I might have something wrong with my plumbing. Unless there are obvious symptoms that I don't know about. I think that is what is upsetting me, that they are pushing for IVF without even exploring every possibility. And at least if we knew that then we could give up trying (and failing) to get PG naturally and just concentrate on the IVF. I am going to wait until after the next appointment and if they still wont do it i will look into paying for it. I would just feel better if I had more concrete facts!

Oh ifatfirst how disappointing for you... The FS has caused you more stress than charting ever would! As Choccie says above, if you are ovulating then stress is obviously not affecting your chances. In my opinion, SWIing from cd7 every other day would be way more stressful than charting to find out exactly the right time!! I wish you HUGE amounts of luck.

Choccie how did you remember so much detail?! Nice work! Really interesting stuff and glad you actually found such a helpful, honest consultant.

Salad I agree it's odd you have not been put forward for more tests- are you able to find another consultant for a second opinion?

I am not sure ell11 I don't know if that would mean getting another referral from the GP and starting the process over at a different hospital. But i would still end up being treated at the same FC so not sure if the delay would be worth it!.

Just wanted to let you know that I miscarried this week. Just back from the hospital and they've confirmed everything is gone. Very sad but we are ok and supporting each other.

Do you guys think is ok to try again straight away? The (very) junior Dr we saw advised us to wait until next period but when I asked her why said she didn't know!

I am so sorry lady for you and MrG but glad you are comforting each other. He sounds like a rock.

IDK about a medical reason you shouldn't but emotionally do you want to put yourself under that pressure straight away? Maybe you could take a few weeks off to comfort each other and take solace in miniG before trying again? And on the practical side figure out what your cycle is doing. Of course, only you know what right for you but its just a thought. If you really want to then maybe talk to a gyne who would have more of a clue than the A&E doc?

My thoughts have been with you very much this weekend. Take care of each other. xx

lady So sorry to hear your news. It's pants isn't it.

I was told that the only reason they like you to wait a month is so that they can date a pregnancy if you are ucky enought to get preg immediately.

Personally, I've done both. After my MMC in Feb I had a n EPRC and I felt that i wanted one period before trying just to be sure that my body had recovered from that.

Then in June I had a spontaneous early loss (7 weeks). We had a scan and they confirmed that it had all gone by itself and the lining was thin just the same as at the start of a cycle. So we decided to just start trying straight away. And I did ovulate that first cycle after MC but it was a little later than usual.

I hope that helps honey.

Loads of hugs from me. Not sure of your age or circumstances but I'm guessing you're fairly young so your odds for next time should be fine. All the best. xx

Thansk Hippy. This has been a spontaneous loss also at 7 weeks and looks like all has come away. Will see when I stop bleeding how I am feeling. I'm only 32 and haven't had problems conceiving so far. Feeling a bit wobbly re: my thyroid issues (medicated but TSH now at 3.5 on recent test which I think is too high but Dr says is normal) and wondering whether it may have been a factor in this loss. Going to speak to GP on Monday as will need a sick note for work in any case.

There is no real rush, but on the other hand my little boy is 2 and desperate for a sibling. This will only be a half sibling (different father) and I sort of feel the closer the age gap the more it will help them to have a close bond so he doesn't feel pushed out at all. That may be completely irrational but is my thought process!

Hippy this has given me a real insight into what you've been through. I always though MC must be upsetting but just didn't realise just how horrible they are until this week. Huge respect for you to have come through it all and be as strong and supportive as you are. xxx