Dealing with challenging conversations on Christianity on MN and elsewhere

[GentleSheep]

I am very sure some of you will know exactly what I mean! I have been trying to get into spreading the gospel online (since I don't get out due to being housebound) and am finding it challenging, although every day I learn something new about how to handle situations.

If you have been involved in this in some way, do you have any tips or strategies? I don't want to avoid talking about the gospel or Christ on this site, there are so many people in need of salvation, but it's hard when coming up against quite militant opposing views. I'm aware there may be people reading threads and lurking who never post when Christianity's being discussed so I do think it's important to witness so they can have something to mull over.

@Ipsevenenabibas Perhaps that's one of the most uncomfortable but valuable things about Scripture — it forces us to look in the mirror, examine our own conscience and our own hearts.

100% agree. Isn't that part of our purpose, to continue to be refined and endeavour to become more like Christ? I also believe He uses our brothers and sisters in Christ to be part of that refining.

@Ipsevenenabibas I just want to add something to my last post, because I really don't want my words to be interpreted as an attempt to stir division between Christians.

More binds us, than divides. 🙏 You are my sister in Christ. We worship Alpha and Omega. I AM. He is above and beyond all that 'stuff'. Yes, as a so-called Protestant, there are things that I believe are mmmmm, not quite right (as in, not in my Bible) with some of the practises of Roman Catholicism and, not here, but in the past I may have allowed myself to be drawn into some very animated discussions, but I have learned from those. Some rough edges have been made smooth. All praise and glory to Him!

For me, I believe in "by Scripture alone" (sola scriptura). It is written. The end. 💝

Thank you for your thoughts-

I had not heard of it this scripture being applied to non Christians before so I was a bit unsure what to think on it. I thought that it might do but had not seen anything else to that nature on this. I had a look around after I posted this and read that it can apply as a second underlying principle to all people. So it is not just my minister who argues this to.

I can only repeat to you what @GentleSheep said up thread: None of us are 'good people' by our own strength. It's important to remember that. It's too easy to go with popular culture and think 'but all people are good'. No, they're not. It's not an easy thing to hear and I know you have a good heart and want to see good in people, but don't be deceived.

I can only advise you to go back to your Bible and believe what it tells you about Fruit. I know some of this will not agree with what you were taught within Roman Catholicism and that is maybe why you struggle with it? Why is being a good person not enough to get you into heaven? Because no one is a “good” person; ...

For @Justmerach Jesus’ teaching about recognizing true followers and avoiding false prophets

This endorses @GentleSheep's message to you upthread. 💐

Thank you
I think that you get to eternal life by faith and grace. I don't think that being a good person only is not what Jesus asked us to do get to eternal life. The argument is clear with me, it is not about good or bad people, but those who do not support the work of Jesus and who may have a bad intention.

@Ipsevenenabibas 💝 I have been pondering this question for some time and it probably falls under the title of this thread 🤔. Our wonderful sister-in-Christ, Ann Widdecombe moved from the Anglican church (and I understand why as they have moved away from the Bible in their wish to be be more 'in' this world). I can understand that other expressions of protestantism would not suit her very conservative character, so she moved to Rome. She seemed very happy and at home there. My ponder has been this, and it is not for debate, but merely knowledge: as a previous Anglican, would she be required to in some way formally 'renounce' that and would her Anglican baptism/Confirmation be invalid?

About Ann Widdencombe I am not replying to what Thegreatestoftheseislove wrote about her.

The topic of the thread is about how to handle difficult posts on this forum etc. Oddly enough considering this is about how things are dealing with difficult interactions I considered about making a post about Ann Widdencombe in this section. I didn’t though because I thought some might say that they don’t feel she was a Christian for one reason or another-so I was hesitant and decided not to post a thread on her murder.

I see now that some posters had good thoughts about her. I thought she was quite a strong female character and I did like that aside from anything she believed in political wise. I don’t know one of her political views.

I did say a prayer for her and I know I lit a candle for her at church.

@Justmerach Okay, gotcha!
So if the question is, can non-Christians do good things?
Then I would answer yes, of course.

But if what you are discussing is the much bigger question of, can a non-Christian be saved?
Then I would tell you what the Catholic Church teaches about non-Christians and the possibility of salvation, but on a personal level it is a question I struggle with. Honestly, sometimes I find myself thinking that only Christians will be saved, while at other times I find myself more in line with the Church’s teaching; that God’s mercy and salvation can extend in specific situations, beyond those who explicitly know and believe in Christ. In sum, I accept what the Church teaches, but I’m not sure I have completely reconciled it in my own mind yet.

I hope this answers your question Rach. I do read the posts, often whilst juggling various other things. Or I start to compose a post and then get pulled away and by the time I get back to posting I have usually forgotten parts of what I wanted to write!

OK I'm back from my church meeting - it was so interesting as they've been to see the reconstruction of the Ark in Kentucky (my church is in the US, the services are over Zoom). They showed me the books they bought with a lot of photos of it. It's a full-sized ark complete with what might have been included in terms of architecture to accommodate the animals and deal with their food water and erm 'output' over the course of the year the Ark was afloat!

Back to what we were talking about:

I asked my pastor about the topic of 'good' unsaved people a few months ago as I was confused about it. I had made some notes:

Apparently there are two parts to this: 1. Our inclination (or desire) and 2. our volition (or the action carried out).

In terms of our inclination or desire, there are just two possibilities: 1.You desire God, or 2. you desire Self.

There are two ways to judge all actions. 1. Look at the initial indication of whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. 2. Has the person got good or evil in their heart? We must judge the inclination. The morality of an action is not rooted in the action itself.

Re good acts, e.g. giving to the poor. Why would a person give to the poor? Possible reasons "I want to better humanity". Look at this from the two possible inclinations, 'self' or 'God'. If it's not done out of a desire to glorify God it's inherently not a morally good action. If the ultimate reason isn't a God reason, then it must come back to a Self reason. Thus every act, unless it comes out of a desire for God, cannot be a good moral act even though it may be helping someone. Thus a non-believer may do many positive things for humanity, but they don't do anything out of a heart for God. That's why Jesus says no-one does good except for God.

I hope I managed to convey that properly, I found it quite a difficult concept at the time.

I pretty much 100% agree with what you've written there. If you have genuine faith then works will naturally follow. Your faith should grow and you should be transformed over the course of your life as sanctification proceeds. That involves active participation on the part of the believer, we need to step out with Christ.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove More binds us, than divides. 🙏 You are my sister in Christ.
YES! Thank you for this 🙏

Heavenly Father,
Thank You for the Christian Mumsnet forum and for the wonderful community I have found there. Thank You for giving me a place where I can freely share my thoughts, ask questions, learn, and communicate with fellow Christians. I am grateful for the wise, kind and thoughtful people I have encountered there. Their words, faith and encouragement have brought me comfort, inspiration and happiness. Thank You for creating a space where people can come together in faith, support one another and share their love for You. I pray that this community continues to be a place of kindness, understanding, wisdom and fellowship. Thank You, Lord, for the joy it brings me and for the people You have placed in my path through it. All praise, honour and glory belong to You.
Amen.

As I understand the Catholic position, Ann Widdecombe wouldn't have been baptised again when she became Catholic. The Catholic Church recognises valid Anglican baptism. She was formally received into full communion with the Catholic Church, made the necessary profession of Catholic faith and then received Holy Communion as a Catholic. Whether an Anglican Confirmation is recognised as valid is considered separately; if someone has already been validly confirmed, the Catholic Church does not confirm them again. So it isn't really a case of 'renouncing' her baptism, but of leaving Anglican ecclesial communion and entering into full communion with Rome.

Ann Widdecombe was widely recognized as a devout and practicing Christian. I really admired her and feel so sad at her brutal murder.

Eternal rest grant to her, O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon her. May she rest in peace. Amen.

What a heartfelt prayer to which I respond with a resounding: thank you Lord, yes and Amen 🙏

Thank you for explaining 💖. I admired Ann for her strong Christian Faith and it was lovely to read and hear such wonderful tributes to her, even from political opponents. She was a true and faithfully servant. Sorry for digressing on this thread. 💐

No problem, I too admired Ann for her faith and ability to stand up for what she believed in, in an uncompromising way.

Thank you. I was wondering about the 1st question, but that was cleared up. Sometimes numerous non Christian posters can reply in other parts of the board. Then you may see posts that there was work of the enemy etc. It was really clarifying what this could mean and it was explained that it means that they do not at least support Jesus' Christ work. I think that can be agreed on.

I have seen provocative posts online about Christianity and posts which abused the concept of Christianity.. Some people who are non believers though seem to appear committed about some things, they may find hell difficult and not understand the faith. Some see a need to speak to those in the street who preach about sinners going to hell. They argue seeming as what they think they are doing is with good intention to. I found that interesting, their view this is with good intention for them.

People should have respect for other posters and stick to their boundaries.

So we agree that non believers can do good deeds as well.

You raised a 2nd point. I myself was educated in a Catholic school from 4 to 19 and baptised in a Catholic church. About your 2nd point. I also feel that God may have mercy on some who didn't know the faith but don't know for sure how this will be. For example someone profoundly disabled may not able to understand the Bible and a child could have died before being able to understand the faith. This view does not appear out of line with the Catholic church. I see myself as non denominational today but still attend through the year for Holy Communion mass at a Catholic church I attended as a child and still respect Catholic church's.

GentleSheep could you post the scripture where Jesus says that no-one does good except for God?

Whilst waiting for GS, if you read the links I posted up thread, they will tell you.

Reply to my post above, I do know that scripture that nobody does good except for God. I read it as something else first. That means that all us do not do absolute good to me and that is God who does absolute good. Humans still can do good deeds, but it will not be absolute goodness.
It is only God who can judge the heart of others.
Also, I think it is good at times to do things freely for others even if you love God. For example someone visited me once. They made some food. They said they was simply doing this because of God and not for me. Somehow it didn't sound right. Scripture says we should do things freely with no exception of reward.

I think one needs to be careful how they view others. If you use this wrongly and see others as not being able to do good you may run into issues with viewing them with love or respecting them as yourself as layers will go up which may make it harder to..

@Justmerach

GentleSheep could you post the scripture where Jesus says that no-one does good except for God?

The verse is in the story of the rich young man in Mark 10:17

17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I think one needs to be careful how they view others. If you use this wrongly and see others as not being able to do good you may run into issues with viewing them with love or respecting them as yourself as layers will go up which may make it harder to..

Well you have to remember that we were all in that state originally, inclined towards Self. Now we want others to know the love of Jesus and His forgiveness, so we must have compassion on those people, even those who reject us, as they are still walking in the dark.

I thought I would link to the Catholic church views on how we can all do good. I think that God can use non believers sometimes to help others. That is for another topic though and not for this thread.
www.ewtnnews.com/vatican/pope-says-everyone-can-do-good-regardless-of-belief

Hmm not sure I agree with the Pontiff's views there, or I simply don't understand them.

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone.”

“Even the atheists. Everyone,” Pope Francis stressed.

You're not redeemed unless you repent and believe in Christ, though. I don't see how 'everyone is redeemed'. They CAN be redeemed, but no-one is until they believe. Unless I totally misunderstand what he said. Unless he means 'Christ died for everyone' - yes, but they still aren't redeemed unless they repent and believe.

Please hear my heart: I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism because my belief is there more that joins us than divides us (as I said up-thread). People have died because of the 'arguments'. I am not going to debate the subject, but just present what the Bible says. 🙏💝

For @Justmerach I feel that maybe because of your Roman Catholic religious roots from childhood, you are doing a bit of pick and mix with a subject that just is not pick and mixable? Your thoughts expressed here are influenced by Rome, so not non-denominational.

As @GentleSheep (and the Bible) says: You're not redeemed unless you repent and believe in Christ,

The difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism