Dealing with challenging conversations on Christianity on MN and elsewhere

[GentleSheep]

I am very sure some of you will know exactly what I mean! I have been trying to get into spreading the gospel online (since I don't get out due to being housebound) and am finding it challenging, although every day I learn something new about how to handle situations.

If you have been involved in this in some way, do you have any tips or strategies? I don't want to avoid talking about the gospel or Christ on this site, there are so many people in need of salvation, but it's hard when coming up against quite militant opposing views. I'm aware there may be people reading threads and lurking who never post when Christianity's being discussed so I do think it's important to witness so they can have something to mull over.

I haven't, no. This is because the five fold ministry is heavily connected to the New Apostolic Reformation - it's one of their core doctrines. The man who invented the NAR, C. Peter Wagner, promoted the view that the lost offices of Apostles and Prophets have been reinstated in the 20th Century. Most mainstream Christian churches do not believe in a modern day role of Apostles and Prophets. You can ask your priest/vicar/pastor about this as you may be unaware, I certainly was.

My pastor did a long series on what the NAR teach and believe and how they try to infiltrate churches. You can find a lot of self-styled 'apostles' and 'prophets' on YouTube where it's not hard to prove they are all charlatans, by using Biblical tests. A very helpful book on this topic is "Counterfeit Kingdom: The dangers of new revelation, new prophets and new age practices in the Church". The authors are interviewed on the excellent Fighting for the Faith channel:

The interviewer is Pastor Chris Roseborough, a Lutheran priest, who formerly was in the Latter Rain NAR movement.

I believe every Christian should know and understand about the NAR. There are very many wolves out there with false teachings that can deceive innocent Christian lambs. I think it's better to figure out one's gift(s) via Bible study, taking part in Church activities, maybe volunteering and of course prayer.

Yes, I know a lot about NAR but definitely not interested in their teaching or people who give themselves inflated titles. I just view 5 fold ministry as a way of seeing where my ministry calling lies. If for example I scored as ‘apostle’, I’d seen that as my primary gift being visionary or as a church planter for example, certainly not as a self styled ‘Apostle’.

My main gifts are definitely pastoral and teaching as those are the things I’m most passionate about. I am actually a bi vocational pastor. 😊

I started a post on a UK forum general advice board about 22 years ago in 2004 it got to just over 400 pages. A mix of people was posting. After that I shared my journey in a church in 2014 and then didn’t do anything online posting about my faith to 2022 and then from 2024.

I looked back on the thread I started in 2004 recently. The inspiration I got from others did inspire me to like attend a gathering with family, so I knew at least it had been helpful to me. It is there though as an archive online now with all its crazy posts at times, it was real I was not used to online at all. Someone replied to me they was hitting their heads on a brick wall. I wrote that is not my doing thinking who if they could be doing it for real. That was a long time ago.... The archive has proved important and it helped me to write some posts the information about other people’s experiences and it is there for others to.

Also, sometimes it can be helpful to get the advice of someone else in your network team like my minister read a post once as I wanted to know an idea how I should respond. If something is troubling someone then the advice of a minister or someone from your church who is trusted may be helpful.

Some people will stop when abuse is present and some people will continue. Everyone has different limits. As mentioned Jesus tells people they can leave if they are made not welcome.

With a lot of social media now you can turn of comments on places like TickTock, Youtube and some blogs.

Yes the online world is certainly a big learning experience, I've been on various forums over the past 20 or so years, no more like 30! Goodness time flies! It's been a rollercoaster, that's for sure.

And I am bound to observe that the rollercoaster continues on MN … wherever the enemy is at work, the ride will not be smooth.

@GentleSheep I know that upthread you said about not teaching, but your recent enlightening posts ( young earth, etc) have been to His Glory. 💐 Thank you.

My previous challenging experiences on the roller coaster that is message boards means I turned off private messaging here on MN.

Thank you! I felt convicted to share what I've learned. 💖

Oh goodness I hope you weren't receiving 'undesirable' PMs!

I learned something disturbing this week - quite a few of the clergy in the Confessing Anglican Church have fatwas issued against them and have received death threats. All for speaking out for the faith. I suppose we in the UK are not used to such things but persecution and oppression is increasing. All the more reason to stand up and be counted, even on MN!

@GentleSheep Thank you! I felt convicted to share what I've learned. 💖

God bless you for following His prompting 🙏

Oh goodness I hope you weren't receiving 'undesirable' PMs!

No, not on here because I never activated PMs. With previous experiences they sent me into autistic overload … but that’s a whole new story. 🤭

I learned something disturbing this week - quite a few of the clergy in the Confessing Anglican Church have fatwas issued against them and have received death threats. All for speaking out for the faith.

Horrific! But sadly not surprising nor unexpected. Come, Lord Jesus, come 🙏

I suppose we in the UK are not used to such things but persecution and oppression is increasing. All the more reason to stand up and be counted, even on MN!

Yes and Amen! Keep speaking His Truth and let His Word do the rest 🙏.

I haven’t been involved in that many discussions with others on forums.
I think that there is a real Satan out there and demons and also I think others can be used by them or behave like it and on forums that can happen to. I think we have to be careful not to see others who are vehement in their own beliefs say as an atheist and think that they are doing the work of evil. They may be good people and just don’t agree and passionate about it. Hopefully you can come to a middle ground with some.

In that 2004 thread I mentioned I never viewed a single poster as potentially evil and saw them like they just came with a difference of opinion or who didn’t like what I was writing and I tried to respect them and found it difficult if there had been a misunderstanding.

Just remember the words of Jesus (Matthew 12:30) "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." There's no 'middle ground'. None of us are 'good people' by our own strength. It's important to remember that. It's too easy to go with popular culture and think 'but all people are good'. No, they're not. It's not an easy thing to hear and I know you have a good heart @Justmerach and want to see good in people, but don't be deceived.

Having said that I don't think an atheist is 'evil'. They are just in the dark as we all were once, walking in their own human wisdom. They may be influenced by the demonic as well, not 'possessed' in some dramatic way, but taking the role of accuser and deceiver, those are Satan's tools. They use them unwittingly of course.

I understand your point GentleSheep, Jesus said as well to love others as ourselves and I take that to be everybody. We should respect others as ourselves to. I tend to treat most people as decent until they prove otherwise. I think that can make for a middle ground.

Absolutely, Jesus loved all, even the worst sinners. He had far more to say in condemnation against the Pharisees, didn't he, the so-called religious leaders. For the other people, he abounded in love, but he had no time for evil. So love the person but don't affirm the sins.

This ⬆️

Jesus used His Righteous Anger against those who deserved it. And 100% in agreement with 'love the sinner but not the sin'. We should never endorse the sin by overlooking it, or stroking the egos of the individuals. I have infinite patience with those who are clearly seeking Jesus. I have zero patience with those (the prowling wolves) who willingly misuse Scripture or who knowingly lead others astray. I have little to minimal patience with those who unknowingly or unwittingly do the work of the enemy. Time is short! 🙏

I think Nicodemus was interesting in the Bible and appeared in the Gospel of John. Jesus seems to have spent quite a lot of time with Nicodemus trying to make him understand. He seemed patient with him and didn't seem to take him as actively against him. Nicodemus spoke up for Jesus to. I think it shows we can have respectful discussion with people of other faiths but of course sometimes there may be abuse as well with others if they are not respectful.

I very much hope Nicodemus found his way to the light! Nicodemus was searching for understanding and had a humble attitude, most of the Pharisees did not. The section of John that speaks of Nicodemus (John 3:1-21) ends with these powerful verses: (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

We see there the love Jesus has for all, yet at the same time there's no middle ground.

I was not referring to excusing people who do evil or who behave in an evil manner.
I spoke a minister today about the last scriptures you mentioned Matthew 12 and they said you need to read this in context of other scriptures. They said people will be known by their works which seems to be Matthew 7 and they said the goodness of God can be seen at times in other people still who may not yet be Christian.

A middle ground meant that we don't assume that a person who has a different faith is doing the work of evil when they discuss their differences of opinion. Yes, they can do this but some might not. I was not writing about a middle ground about accepting differences in scripture.

I think the minister was referring to Matthew 7:16

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

That people are known by their good actions which comes from a good heart and it seems to apply to everybody.

@GentleSheep We see there the love Jesus has for all, yet at the same time there's no middle ground.

Agreed. No middle ground. As we have alluded to previously, the enemy can come in all sorts of guises, even 'good' ones. Not to say that active unbelievers who 'preach' another way are in and of themselves, evil, but they are wittingly, or unknowingly doing Satan's work. Christians need to be steadfast in The Word.

The 'works' referred to in Matthew are the Works from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - not just merely kind people of which there are many in the world, but outward signs of Christ working in Christians.

Your clarification was helpful. You don’t know someone’s thoughts and I have seen this word used quite a few times and it can be at times unclear how it may be intended.

I do understand your argument. I don’t disagree that wrong information can be spread, but it is not always from a bad intention. A person may genuinely be seeking and have questions etc.I think an understanding has been reached by what you wrote.

I have met some very kind people in my life of all faiths. Having in the past spent three years in a NHS hospital for anorexia over 4 years ago I got to meet a wide variety of people of all faiths.

It would be interesting to read other peoples thoughts how they perceive (Matthew 7:16).

I will respond @Justmerach later today as right now I'm listening to an online Christian conference then I've church later. 😊

You are very gentle @Justmerach You have shared a lot about your life and I see somebody who is vulnerable and I guess part of me feels protective when, in my opinion, I observe you being unknowingly used. Keep being you. 💐

@Justmerach It would be interesting to read other peoples thoughts how they perceive (Matthew 7:16).

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-20)

Jesus doesn't tell us simply to listen to what people say. He tells us to look at the fruit. Does their faith produce love, charity, humility, mercy and holiness — or pride, hatred, division and sin? The passage then goes on to say something even more challenging:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father.”
This makes me think about the difference between the Catholic understanding of salvation and the Protestant emphasis on faith alone. I know there are different Protestant traditions and that this is a much bigger theological subject than a Mumsnet post, but the Catholic position isn't that we can somehow earn salvation through good works.

Rather, faith and works aren't supposed to be separated. We are saved by God's grace, and genuine faith should bear fruit in how we actually live. Good works don't replace faith — they are the fruit of a living faith. It makes that passage about the wolves particularly interesting to me. Christianity isn't simply about saying the right things or claiming to believe in Jesus. Not everyone who acknowledges Christ to be God will waltz into the Kingdom of Heaven. No, even the demons recognize the fact that Christ is God! In some Bible passages the demons have a greater belief in Christ’s divinity than the people who would follow Him around!

The question is whether our faith is actually transforming us and whether we are trying to do the will of God. And I think that applies to me just as much as anyone else. It's very easy to look at other people's “fruit” and forget to examine our own. Am I becoming more loving? More forgiving? More charitable? More humble? More Christ-like? Perhaps that's one of the most uncomfortable but valuable things about Scripture — it forces us to look in the mirror, examine our own conscience and our own hearts.

I just want to add something to my last post, because I really don't want my words to be interpreted as an attempt to stir division between Christians.

Through the posts I've read here on Christian Mumsnetters, I've come to know many of you, at least in some small way, through your words and the way you talk about your faith. I know that most of you aren't Catholic, and my intention absolutely isn't to say that Catholics are right and other denominations are wrong.

Rather, I think what has struck me is that, despite our denominational differences, there are so many people here who clearly have a deep love and faith in Jesus. From what I've seen of people's posts, I believe most of you are good people who genuinely try to live out your faith.

And if the person we see through your online posts reflects the person you are in real life, then I have no doubt that God is pleased with the love, faith and goodness you show. We may understand some things differently, but that doesn't mean I want us to be divided. ✝️

Thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to post this ipsevenabibas.
I did know the general meaning, there seemed to be some confusion if the message that you we know people by their good actions/deeds/works extends to everyone. My minister said that works which I assume fruit can extend to non believers as well.

It is an interesting area. I see this debate come up at times that you don't only have be a Christian to be a good person/values.

@Justmerach My minister said ...

What does your Bible tell you?

you don't only have be a Christian to be a good person/values.

Of course not. There are lots of lovely kind people in the world. However, we are talking about Christ and His Disciples and drawing people to Jesus. Unless those lovely kind people know Him, their 'good works' are only for this world in this time - they have no 'worth' in eternity. Their good works are not done for the Glory of God but more for the 'recognition' (and maybe, accolades) of man.