Noisy Kids in Church- who should move seats?

[Truthfully555]

Seasons greetings All,

Went to a service on Christmas morning. Got there early so I could sit where I like and be comfortable. 10-15mins into service I notice parents plus their two kids probably 6-9 are continuously making noise banging on the wooden prayer kneel rest and the pew itself. It's not loud enough to disrupt the service but it's very noticeable to anyone within 2 rows, it's especially so to me as they're one row behind. Didn't bother saying anything.I did turn round once just to see what was going on. The whole service essentially with this every couple minutes. I mentioned this to someone later and they said I should have moved. For myself, I got there early because I can get uncomfortable with anxiety overheating etc- moving seats when the church is now nearly half full and I'm probably not going to find somewhere comfortable doesn't seem right nor even possible. However, although I get that being Christian we're supposed to be generous and thoughtful, my thinking is that if you know your kids probably aren't going to be quiet or that they start being noisy and are not stopping anytime soon, that you shouldn't really be expecting everyone else to suffer for your convenience - I think they should move somewhere either the back or somewhere on the sides where there's less disruption to others. Who do you think should move?

I think this story is a useful reminder that the church is a body made of of many different parts, all with different needs and different gifts. I think it is one of the most important roles of churches to make services as accessible to as many as they can. Otherwise you end up with a church full of only one type of person and that isn't a healthy church.
Lots of people have rightly been annoyed about the OP wanting the kids to not be at church but a lot less people have noticed her accessibility issues related to her mental health. It can be difficult to support people when their needs are opposing but it isn't impossible and is definitely worth trying.

Apologies for the mention. Mumsnet won't let you delete mentions once they have been added. It is infuriating. n@Truthfully555

OP I'm sorry the service was difficult for you and it did not work out as a way for you to worship or enjoy the fellowship of others on that occasion.
None of us knows what led to those children/family being noisy.
Neurodivergence, a different understanding to yours of how people should behave in church, maybe the parents were too exhausted to use that service as an opportunity to teach children about consideration of others. I don't know, I don't judge and I do not expect they should move.
None of us is more important to God than anyone else, but the important thing is you were all there in Gods house, you, them, everyone.
I agree with posters above that different services and congregations have different expectations. I would expect the Christmas morning service to be chaos! At our church the first half of Christmas morning service is a family friendly celebration, one of my kids said it's Jesus's Birthday party - then the young families leave and carry it on in the church hall. The second half of the service is communion where the vibe is more adult.

@Truthfully555 did you at any point ask the parents to shut their kids up and make them stop ? If that is how they always behave in church the parents may well think that they are not bothering anyone , probably they aren’t that good at mind reading . If you wanted to stop the disruption you either needed to move or should have asked them to deal with it , the answer is not to say nothing and then moan afterwards .

I noticed them. I think that choosing to go to a Christmas morning children’s service when you struggle with anxiety and noise is just a poor choice. Like being an emetophobe and going binge-drinking.

Fair comment 😀

OP I completely understand where you're coming from. I attend church regularly, and am a 'sideman" at my church, which is basically welcoming, handing out service sheets, and sometimes dealing with disruptive individuals or emergencies.

I love to see babies and children in church. Every year at Christmas, a baby manages to chirp or burble during the readings about the birth of a Saviour, and a smile goes through the congregation. I also think it is perfectly possible and desirable for children to behave respectfully and for the most part be quiet for the length of the service. For some kids there will be enough to interest them in the music, the various people, the rituals, the building. For some kids it will be boring. So what? If nothing else, it will teach them how to deal with boredom. Children need to learn that there is a way to behave in a public place, and it is different from how you might behave at home. The lines seem to be blurred right now.

I don't think you should have moved. Anyway, a merry Christmastide to you.

"being Christian we're supposed to be generous and thoughtful"

You don't sound either, you sound curmudgeonly and difficult

By the way, some Christians are lovely
Some are cunts

Some atheists are lovely
Some are cunts

Believing in a deity and following their arbitrary rules doesn't make you a good person. Being a good person makes you a good person.

If you think being exposed to some knocking noises in a church that were in your own words not loud enough to disrupt the service is "suffering" then you might want to chat to your priest or vicar or whoever about others who are truly suffering in this world.

6 and 9, whereas are perfectly old enough (normally) to behave in a service, I would say that was on their parents to speak to them.
I'd have hoped that any Christmas day service would have been designed round having children in, so they'd have become interested in what was happening, though.

I'd have moved away if it had bothered me.

The one time behaviour did bother me was years ago we had a baptism. They turned up with about 50, almost entirely adults, or at any rate mid teens upwards. They sat and talked at normal volume through the service until it came to the baptism, making it hard to hear what was going on (not miked up in those days).
When the baptism was going on they were walking round the church to get the best angle for the photos, including at one point asking the minister to repeat (putting the water on the baby's head) because they wanted another photo.
As soon as the baptism had finished, they all, except mum, dad and baby got up and walked out noisily.

To me that was incredibly rude. Fair enough it may not have been something they believed in, but they should have had respect for the congregation who were welcoming the baby.
The minister, who wasn't known for his tact, did say in the prayers at the end that "we pray for this baby and especially his family that they may know and respect you". Which made me smile.

It’s an epidemic now I think op. People who think just because the church now tolerates and indulges a bit of child noise - which I wholeheartedly agree with - means that their kids are free to just run riot and bang and squawk through the whole service.

It’s totally disrespectful to those who still want a time of personal and concentrated worship.

It’s what’s wrong with modern parenting - indulgent and inconsiderate. Unfortunately the church wants a new generation to fill its pews so we have to put up with it.

@Screamingabdabz don't worry. I'll keep my hideous offspring far away from church. Based on the regular stories about what the leaders get up to it doesn't seem a safe place for children

Surely that's why any church worth its salt offers different types of service for the different contingents - a relaxed, informal service for families, and a quieter, formal service for those who prefer a peaceful experience. You pick your service accordingly and never the twain need meet... Which is a whole other conversation about the nature of Christianity and the future of the church, but I'm not sure the OP is thinking along those lines.

Very good point!

You are free to choose your church.
I would leave very fast from a church accepting children behavng like that. I is quite simple as a vicar or church warden to end ridicolous behavouir.

Part of the issue I'm sure - and which is coming through on this thread a little - is that those without children often think parenting is easy and it should be easy to keep a child quiet and those of an older generation seem to think we as children were the best behaved generation under their parentage and would sit through all 12 stations of the cross without a sound and so think us modern parents let our kids run wild and feral "and they wouldn't have allowed it in their day" . My mother has regaled with me tales today of how - when I was the same age as the twins - sat through all 6 hours of an 8 course fine dinner like an angel....whilst mine barely sat through a fish finger. Nothing to do with the fact I was smacked (and obviously I don't) so there was an (un)healthy dose of fear and consequence if I didn't sit still 🤔

It also depends on your child.

Dd1 was a beautifully quiet child. We took her to all sorts of things with a lift the flap book from about a year old, which kept her absolutely fascinated. She sat through any church service without a peep with very little input from us.

Dd2 wasn't quite as good, but she'd have stayed quiet with a box of raisins or similar for long enough until the children went out.

Ds did not do that. He discovered fairly early enough that if he picked his time and ran to the front, he could then avoid one of us by going to opposite way to us, so the only way to catch him was a pincer movement by both of us. If we tried to hold him still, he screamed loudly, and he was an escape artist when it came to the buggy.
He also hated being left, so I needed to stay with him in creche/Children's Church. Eventually I stopped attending church until he was about 4yo, when he could be reasoned with, as it was pointless going to just stay outside. (he does have ASD, although we didn't know at the time)

If I'd had them in reverse order at least I could have comforted myself with the thought that my parenting was improving. 🤣

Matthew 19 v14
" Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

I love ti see children in church. We have a sweet little girl who has been coming with her grandparents since she was tiny. You never hear a peep out of her. She brings a toy or granny sits her on her lap to make sure she can see what is happening. The vicar includes her in the service (gets her to carry the sacrament, light the advent candle). Likewise there is a little boy, a bit older who reads a book during the sermon. Both lovely families!
Children are always welcome, but they are not welcome to trash the service for others. Screaming, shouting, running about have no place while others are trying to pray and reflect. That’s just lazy and disrespectful parenting and you see it everywhere, cafes, aeroplanes, theatres…

I'm all for kids being welcome at church but I'm starting to think that there is a case for setting aside a part of the church to be a bit of a quiet, maybe sheltered spot if possible. Some services seem really loud and lively which suits some but is overwhelming for others.

It's not reasonable for you to show up on Christmas Day to a church that you don't normally attend and expect things to operate the way you want!
Perhaps this family attends every week, and they always sit in that seat, and the children always bang, and other people who attend have no problem. You can't expect people in a church you don't attend regularly to know that you don't like children banging on a pew. A lot of people wouldn't be bothered by this, so how are they supposed to know you are?!

There is a woman in my church who attends with a support dog. I don't like dogs, so I don't sit near her. She knows this and doesn't take it personally, and we chat before/after the service. I don't expect her to not attend or to move seats when I arrive. If she did arrive after, she probably wouldn't come and sit near me because she knows I don't like dogs. But that's because we both attend regularly so we know about each other!

In our church, most of the congregation attend every week. We know each other, and we love each other, including each other's children. Some children are fidgety and some are quiet. Some are neurodiverse or have behavioural issues and are very noisy! We love those children and support their parents as best we can. If a ND child was literally screaming throughout the sermon, the parent would probably take them outside to calm them down, but if they were just muttering, banging, fidgeting, humming or getting up to walk down the aisles we would just ignore and let them get on with it. Church ought to be a place where people feel comfortable to be themselves, not where everyone has to be on their best behaviour.

Church is ultimately a family of believers. Families are sometimes noisy and chaotic. It sounds like you were looking for something more akin to a concert than a church service.

Why is it better for a small child to be reading a book quietly or playing with a toy than engaging in the service? What is the aim in bringing those children to church? Is it for them to learn about God, or to learn how to sit still and be quiet?
Those children might just as well be in a doctor's waiting room.

I think as a rule of thumb, if a church is expecting more of children than school does in terms of silence and behaviour then you are unlikely to have many children or families attending. If churches want children and families in the congregation, then church needs to become to those children "a place where I have fun and feel at home" rather than "a place where I have to be on my best behaviour." The best way to achieve this is by actively engaging the children in the service or having separate provision and teaching for them, rather than just teaching them to sit quietly while the adults take part in something that is inaccessible to them.

A friend of mine had two autistic boys, she always took them to church as they are a spiritual family and that’s what they’ve always done pre kids, hats off to her don’t know if I could have coped with the pressure of taking my autistic child to church. She got some comments from people as her kids could make a bit of noise or fidget at times, she didn’t let them run around or trash the place and she was doing her best but still got nasty comments. She was probably working at least twice as hard at parenting as the sweet little children you talk about and had about a thousand more times stress but still got the nasty comments. The family stopped going to church completely as it was too upsetting for them. The priest heard about it and was himself upset about had what happened and came round to see them and also spoke about it in a sermon to explain so that the family could go back to church.

im guessing you’d be one of the ones that would have been criticising her parenting as her children weren’t like the sweet little girl you know if comes with her grandparents. It’s easy to parent easy children.

Children are always welcome, but they are not welcome to trash the service for others. Screaming, shouting, running about have no place while others are trying to pray and reflect. That’s just lazy and disrespectful parenting and you see it everywhere, cafes, aeroplanes, theatres…
It depends on the age and temperament of the child at least as much as the parenting. I had 2 boys first who literally could not have sat still for more than 15 minutes, followed by 2 girls who would have sat still and quiet all day of required to.

Can we think of any other contexts where people of a particular category are "always welcome" so long as they behave in a way that is the total opposite of how they would behave if free to be themselves? I don't think that kind of expectation and conditionality leads to anyone feeling truly "welcome".

I agree that setting aside a "quiet corner" for those who might otherwise get overwhelmed is a good idea. Ideally as far from the childrens corner as possible.

In our church the frowning and disapproving-of-any-noise brigade nevertheless chose to sit near to the children's toys corner.

Some people just like moaning, so they’ll sit themselves in a place that is noisy just so they can moan, not saying the op is like this but there is a sizeable element of people who have nothing more stressful going on in their life so have have to create drama