Why is a life without kids still not promoted as a route to happiness?

[OptimismvsRealism]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/15/parents-are-anxious-lonely-overwhelmingly-stressed-and-their-crisis-affects-everyone

Parenthood looks awful. Certainly worse than it needs to be in modern times but fundamentally wretched in many ways. An abandonment of the self.

Shouldn't we be telling young people not to have kids unless they really want to? Like we'd advise with anything so hard.

I have children, adore them, would do anything for them.

I don't know of any men who talk about their families as their best achievement. It doesn't mean that the family isn't right 'up there' but not lauded as such in the same way that many women do.

It would be naiive to think that indoctrination (especially of women) hasn't had a bearing on the routes that women take.

Well and advert featuring one person on their own in a house doesn't provide much scope for dialogue does it. There are also lots of adverts featuring people with friends, even though very few adults actually have a close knit group of friends. It's not indoctrination, adverts are intended to be aspirational. Most people would prefer to be in a happy couple than single or in a miserable couple, so adverts show happy couples. Adverts featuring happy families are for products aimed at people who are already a family but would like to be happier.

That was actually a widely publicised authors take on a study but he later had to retract it as he misunderstood the study.

The studies actually show that couples in LTRs are healthiest & happiest, then parents, then singles, then widows/widowers.

There is a bit of difference between the sexes but the general ranking is the same. The studies also ranked by health & happiness - so it’s a combo, there isn’t a granularity to parse out how much of being happier is because they are healthier.

The most miserable times of my life do correspond to poor health…so I think that is a flaw in the studies.

I am child-free and post menopausal. Obviously I did toy with the idea of having children when I was young and because it was the expected thing for a female but never experienced an urge so irresistible that it outweighed all the worries I had about losing my income and detaching myself to a man who wasn't quite suitable father material.

But I would like to say that if I were 20 now, having read dozens of threads on here in which young mums are struggling with two-year-olds tantruming all over the place, and being expected to go back to work and continue a full-time career even if their babies are only one year old would have put me right off.

Not everyone who posts an opinion quotes a poster with an opposite opinion, try RTFT before assuming I’m assuming kwim?

I have no idea what kwim means. I was simply responding to someone who quoted me. I don't tend to read a whole thread cover to cover before doing that. You made out that 'we' didn't agree, as in the thread, you didn't say a couple of other posters.

A generalisation must apply to a supramajority and the cause:effect relationships you posit that underpin the generalisation must also be valid for the generalisation to be true. Yours fails on both counts imho and that of others on this thread.

Exactly, in your opinion. I've been on many threads where my view has been a minority (not that it is on this thread) but that doesn't mean my observations are incorrect.

You obviously don't think that marriage and family is normalised by society, not only in our society but worldwide. I do. I've known people who had to marry and had children even though they were gay because it was expected of them. I can cite many more examples and have lived in countries where there simply wasn't a choice in the matter as it was expected that you have children.

I have, but not to the scale required to make it a sweeping generalisation which isn’t to say such pressures do not exist. I think the pressures exist side by side with messages saying the opposite, the pros of being childfree. Your sweeping generalisation was probably last valid in the 1970s for the U.K.. It is outdated.

That again is your opinion. I observe what's going on around me, the messages in the media, the pressure on women to settle down and have a family. I don't live in the same society as you where we're all entirely without pressure to conform. Wish I was, sounds great.

If we are going to go there, you haven’t technically presented any evidence for your comments. I respect you enough to not say you are making things up, I suppose my mistake is to expect mutual respect in this conversation. You only need to do a bit of research to see that many children are unwanted and abused.

It's not for me to back up your claims.

The article is about the falling birth rate and why it might be falling. Which has been done over and over again. It’s just updated for cost of living, lack of affordable childcare. However, people with children and child free are feeing the current impacts around cost of living. I spoke to my childfree friends the other week and they feel the same as I do - endless decades of work ahead of us to retire with a measly pension, that our annual income should afford us a more disposable income than we currently have and we’re having to work harder and longer to feel the same enjoyment from life (or be able to afford the same enjoyment) as a few years ago. However, as the article is about the falling birth rate it needs to focus on why parents may not be having more children or people are not having children to begin with.

I’m in my thirties and the message has definitely been throughout my life that having kids is hard and so only do it if you’re sure. The rise of social media, blogs and opinion pieces have made it quite clear how hard parenting is with many people put off from reading those. I’m not saying we need to paint a false picture and encourage people to have children but I think people are entering into parenthood with a much clearer idea of what it will be like and not entering into parenthood if that doesn’t feel like a valid route for them.

Since having my child my life is more stressful, more chaotic. I’m more tired, I’m more worried about finances and the future. But I’m also happier. Not all people who go onto be parents are happier and I think that’s an honest conversation we should be having and allowing to happen. It is possible to experience this extra stress that sounds horrible on paper but actually be happier generally in your life though.

All the SAHDs I know do.
So I think it’s more a function of having to say this is what I did with 20 or so years of my life and a SAHP didn’t have a career during that time other than raising DC.

The fact more women are SAHPs or sacrifice careers/go PT when they have kids is a seperate issue and one that I think is completely independent from who wants kids more.

You can want kids just as much even if you do less of the caregiving. Rich people want kids just as much as poor people even if they have 24/7 Nannies and then boarding schools.

Exactly. more difficult to sell Viagra if you make an ad featuring a man sneaking out of someone’s house at dawn, looking pleased with himself, rather than those (somewhat annoying) ads where older couples with lovely hair dance blissfully around their house, and it’s only clear at the end it’s an aid for Viagra rather than holidays, Regaine, or denture fixadent. Or tango lessons.

Similarly easier to panic sell more Christmas stuff by depicting ads featuring large gatherings of improbably perky-looking people around a table than to depict a single person happily eating a single person’s amount of food, or three friends eating a modest spread.

I have never felt the 'biological urge '. People have wondered all my life why I don't have kids. Children naturally gravitate towards me and I do enjoy their company. But in small doses only.

I wouldn't want a child to have my chronic illnesses, looks or personality either so there's also that.

I don't see why being child free needs to be actively promoted. As a perfectly valid option, yes. And as an option for those who have tried for years to have a child but can't, surely acceptance is better mentally than the years of trying and trying for a child ( but it doesn't make money for anyone).
Haranguing people for not having an abortion when contraception failed, or for not being sterilised at 25 is just as unreasonable as being harangued for not having a child. If you dont want to have children, don't have them. I don't know anyone under the age of 70 who harasses people who don't have children, or thinks it's weird. It's more and more common in my experience. Most people know they can use contraception and abortion
Many people who abuse their children gave children often for other reasons- benefits, something to do, to keep a partner, chaotic lifestyle due to drink/drugs etc. They will not go ' oh yeah I didn't think of that!' when faced with a campaign promoting a child free life. Many people can't be bothered to use contraception properly because they actually aren't that bothered if they get pregnant or not and leave it to fate. They will still do this. If you actively don't want children, don't have them and ignore the ( in my experience small) groups of people who actually care about your decision for more than 5 seconds

I know quite a few people who are not parents by choice. They're no happier than me who has chose to have children. I don't think I'm happier than them either by the way.

life has ups and downs whatever your situation, just because they don't have children doesn't mean they don't have other upsets and stresses.

some of the things that cause me stress are directly linked to being a parent but not all and some of the things that bring me immense joy are directly linked to being a parent but not all.

I have witnessed friends who are child free by choice be incredibly unhappy at times that's just life not having children doesn't guarantee happiness just as having children doesn't guarantee happiness.

@poppyzbrite4
Yes, all of this are opinions, yours too, and you haven’t backed up any of your opinions either so why should I entertain posting links to support my opinion at only your request? It’s all opinion based on what we have read and experienced. Why do you think everyone who disagrees with you on a matter of opinuon has to “back up their claims” when you are not doing it yourself? Really that is so rude.

I disagree with your opinion, as have others, and I did say in my second post to you that ‘we’ referred to other posters with similar opinions to mine that disagree with you too,

you’ve said you don’t make a habit of RTFT so don’t know what other posters say- fair enough- but perhaps don’t repeatedly say someone is assuming and making things up when you can’t even be bothered to read all the opinions on the thread. It’s not on.

@WhereIsMyLight
I’m in my thirties and the message has definitely been throughout my life that having kids is hard and so only do it if you’re sure.

I agree, there was a definite tipping of the scales in the 1990s where children began to be actively discouraged as something you only do if you are sure.

It was great talking to you but you're rehashing the same points which have little relevance to the discussion in hand.

Enjoy your afternoon.

Ta same to you.

Not sure about children but marriage was the thing that made the biggest impact on my finances as an adult.

Marrying at 22 meant I could buy my home at 26 and was motivated to do so. I would have needed to earn 100k as a 26 year old to buy the same property and we only had a household income of 75k combined. Buying early has meant we has a 1k mortgage in London for 5 years and could overpay.

It's why when you compare married and cohabitating couples, the former have far greater wealth. Marriage is a long term project so married people are motivated to make long term decisions.

No-one ever encouraged me to have children until I had one child, and then a lot of people told me I should have another, ranging from gently suggesting the idea all the way up to actively telling me having one child was selfish- even though my daughter has an older sister (technically half but we don't treat it as such) who she is close to.

True, people tend to have strong opinions about perfect # of children and even to the point of “oh don’t you want a boy and a girl” and “only children end up spoiled or lonely” etc

It’s like once you decide to have children, people have all this unsolicited advice for you.

Shouldn't of joined Mumsnet,that is definitely one for pendants corner..I merely saw the headline and decided to have a look. What a tetchy lot.. people who in their 20s are definitely not going to have children,do often change their mind. A friends daughter was so angry she was refused sterilisation at 20, went on to have 4. Someone posted if you are sterilised and change your mind, you have to live with the consequences, but people don't. They then demand a reversal on the NHS. I spent a year working in a gynae/infertility clinic.

But why would I want help to get other my craving?! I think you should only have children is you truly desire to be a parent - it’s a huge responsibility but it is immensely rewarding, I feel hugely privileged to have mine and they enrich my life. I am fortunate that I was in my thirties having them so I don’t feel I missed out on travel etc and I have a great husband so I’m not doing it alone so I appreciate all that, but I’m so happy I have mine and would consider going again!

Please stop with the 'You will change your mind'. It is so patronising.

Someone said the same thing to me when I was 23. Guess what? I am now 40 and feel the same way I did back then. Don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept that not all women want children.

I'd imagine there's higher status given when someone has kids because there's a recognition that they have responsibility for a completely helpless human and have to guide them through life. Having elderly parents or pets simply doesn't compare, no matter how much people try to argue that it does. It's a sign that someone has chosen to put someone else's needs first (yes I know not all parents do, but most do. Yes I know it's not always a choice but it often is).

It's not a weird duality. It's that having this responsibility also reduces your time, energy and money. Speaking for only myself, I was more immature, more selfish and more lazy before I had kids, simply because I didn't need to change. As long as I could fulfil my work obligations and pay my bills, I had no other pressing demands on my time. Now, through necessity, I am more responsible and more mature, and any "higher social status" I may have gained is almost entirely down to that.

No, the mums I know just wanted kids, and had a pretty good idea of the risks.

Because happiness is not black and white and everyone’s ’happiness’ is different!!
This is a stupid goady thread. You also imply from your op that women aren’t encouraged to have a child free life.. well the birth rate is declining so someone is obviously making that choice! I don’t think any of your ‘evidence’ is correct at all..

Many people do change their minds. I'd never say it, though.