Would you make an au pair pay?

[gooseegg]

If your au pair had had her purse stolen with her front door key in it would you insist on her paying the full price, half price or have no need to contribute at all financially to the cost of a replacement front door lock and new keys?

The au pair was out with friends in a nightclub - so drunk that she was an easy target.

The purse was later discovered in a car park by security guards with (thankfully) all her debit cards and her passport still inside. But our front door key and her mobile phone were missing.

In the purse she had left a document (a money transfet form) with our address on - which also wasn't taken, but which may have been read and have now provided a thief with our address and the means to break in easily.

The lock will need to be changed tomorrow, and dh and I have a difference of opinion on who should pay for it.

Gooseegg, being more responsible becasue you know the society you live in is fine. That same sociaty provides avenues for its citizens to enjoy themselves, and provides security in many forms in case they do get out of their depth - as humans are apt to do.

Walking around central park circa 1975 alone in a thong might just about tip the irrespinsible scales in to 'partial' responsiblity - it has the ring of looking for trouble about it - but going out and getting drunk, whilst not the cleverest thing to do, is something a huge amount of women do now, the majority of them not coming to any harm, as they and most men know that to sexually assault anyone is a crime.

Those men who still attepmt this becasue of the vulnereblity of the woman (drunk, upset, bereaved, hell disabled) are sioley responsible for crossing that line of criminaity.

I hope you can try to be less judgemental fo this girl, and all women who have been unfortunate enough to fall prey to such opportunists.

It does make me wonder where you got this opinion from. Does your DH have the same opinion?

KatieDD, I have only skimmed the thread, but I can't quite see anyone except yourself calling the OP an utter idiot.

Sure I think that some of gooseggs comments are a little unnecessary, and she is probably not doing herself any great favours by sharing them,but going back to her original question. Goosegg has done nothing wrong except hire an AP but yet has to pay out for a set of keys.

Now I agree that theft can happen to anyone and the AP is as entitled as anyone else to do what she wants on her night out.

However the fact remains that Goosegg is out of pocket.

Were the keys and phone actually stolen or did AP just drop them ? Strikes me if I was a thief think I would take passports and credit cards.

I think in this case the OP should pay for the new set of keys, but make it clear that next time she would need to pay for them herself.

In sort, you can preach better self responsibilty without abdicating all empathy and understanding for those who are unlucky.

Bad things happen to good people.

I had my purse stolen in Belguim when I was au pairing there in 1990. I lost the house key, my money and loads of photos. I wasn't made to pay. They knew they weren't paying me enough! Different circumstances though as it wasn't stolen when I was drunk.

Great comment I wonder if the police agree with you.

I would be advising the au pair to leave and you should pay yourself.

How to lose all sympathy in one short sentence!

[shock ] nighbynight

gooseegg, you're saying that its her fault for "losing" the keys but you're not getting the locks cahnged until tomorrow....

well then, its'll be your fault if you get burgled for not getting them down as soon as you found out.

As for you ridiculous assault comment, you didn't hinestly think anyone would agree with that, did you??
You're deluded if you did.

Aha.

By OP: "When she goes out she likes to drink lots of vodka - which I privately don't like or approve of"

So what's really the issue here is that the OP disapproves of the au-pair's drinking.

So if the AP goes out drinking, and something bad happens to her, the the OP's view that she shouldn't be doing it in the first place is vindicated.

It's a "don't come crying to me" type thing where if a bad thing actually happens the person who said it can feel all smug.

I suspect that's what's behind the "only got themselves to blame" brigade - they don't approve of women going out and drinking and so are quick to point the finger at the women when something goes wrong.

In fact I'm sure that's the case. How depressing.

Well I choose the word idiot others probably had better descriptions, just as accurate.

"Idiot" is pretty charitable.

Other people's opinions are always interesting and I respect them.

This society has an attitude towards excessive drinking (and by this I mean people, like my au pair, who take it as a prerequisite to having a good night out that they get as drunk as possible to the point of passing out on the dance floor and having memory blackouts the next day) that I challenge.

I start to teach my kids from a very young age how to protect themselves against danger. From teaching them the green cross code to stranger danger. My aim is that will become responsible adults who are aware of the very real dangers in this very much non ideal world. I have worked for 10years in the ambulance service. I have dealt with victims of unimaginable crime who have been too drunk to open their eyes.

My son is 18 and about to spend a week in Prague with his mates. You bet I'll be drilling him in the sort of low lifes that WILL be waiting out for lads like him and will see him as a ready target even if he doesn't keep his wits about him. You bet I'll be telling him that, yes, boys get raped too.

Life is cheap and worth no more to some people than the cost of a wristwatch.

Anyone who abuses alcohol to the extent that I have spoken about is partly responsible for becoming the victim of an assault.

I was once assaulted by a doorman who tried to rip my clothes off in an alley because I had been drunk in hic club and the manager wanted me out. Luckily I had enough consciousness to elbow him and he thought better of his actions and chucked me in a taxi.

If I hadn't been so drunk I would definately not have been in that vulnerable situation.

So had the Doorman raped you would you have expected to be treated with any less sympathy than say a stone cold sober person walking home from work ? Should the Doorman receive a less sentence because you were "asking for it" ?
I thank god the police and legal system has moved on Gooseegg you have got to stop reading the Daily Mail, for the sake of your children, you don't want them repeating this shite at school/Uni and getting torn to pieces.

Could you drill your son to not get the train into prague when he gets of the plane - it is really bad for getting mugged.

No on both counts (sympathy and the law).

A rape is a rape. A thief is a thief.

I have not questioned that, and I too dislike the Daily Mail.

Rapists and thieves hang around city centre night clubs looking for opportunities that may arise for them to take advantage of drunk and incapable people.

I know that and so does ap's dad, which is why he has come down even heavier on her than we have. Her dad thinks without question that she should pay the full cost of replacement locks.

ivy - thank you. How would you advise that the boys best get to their hostel in the city?

Of course you are right that rapists look for easy targets, but that DOES NOT MAKE THE VICTIM AT FAULT. I could walk down the street naked and shit faced, nobody has the right to touch me without my consent.

How old is your AP that she also needs a telling off from her dad about something that has happened with her job?

Will you be telling your son and daughter that a drunk woman is also responsible if she gets raped? Thus implying that if your son does something like this it's not all his fault, and if your daughter is a victim that it's her own fault for drinking?

If I walked down the street shitfaced and naked of course no one would have the RIGHT to assault me.

I would however be behaving in a totally irresponsible way and disregading the very real threat to my own safety.

That would be a contributing factor making me partly responsible for the situation.

I know people don't see things the same way as I do and I do often seem to have views that are unorthodox.

I'm going to leave this now and hopefully the au pair thing will be resolved sensibly.

Thank you for contributing.

gooseegg, I am sure everyone instils basic safety into their children, not getting into strange cabs, not getting utterly paralytic and lying in the middle of the road, not walking through the scariest part of a foreign city alone at night.

That is fine and common sense.

Where our ideas part is that if someone does something which is maybe not the most sensible thing in the world, like any of the things above, they are not responsible if they are assaulted by someone else. The responsibility for the assault lies with the person who did it.

If a woman was raped after getting in a strange cab, or walking alone in a foreign city late at night, would they be partly to blame as well? Or is it just drinking that you have an issue with?

gooseeg - I went to prague and when I got out of the airport was a bit worried about getting a taxi - but it seemed ok, I made it appear that I knwew exactly where I was going and had been there before. (I hadn't been to prague before)

My cousin got the train two years later and was mugged by 7 men - they pinned him against the door of the train so he couldn't move and took everything in his pockets and even checked his socks. They didn't harm him physicaly but took his money. When he got to the hotel it was if it was an every day occurance and they just sorted it out for him - apparently it does happen a lot. So when his wife flew out two days later she got a taxi and that seemed to be ok.

I can only say just tell him to be careful and have his wits about him.

Even if he is travelling with mates they need to be careful as it is a hot spot for mugging and I dont know if they only pick on single guy/girls travelling alone or will tackle a few people?

gooseegg opinion has really made me sad.a woman drinking alcohol does not condone her being sexually assaulted. a twisted frame of reference that partially blames the victim for the attack. step back, apportion blame with the attacker. This logic leads to a "asking for it" logic

i have read some nonsense on MN usually i shrug it off but this has really shocked me.

apparently juries tend to disbeleive sexual assaults/rape when the victim has not pghysically fought her assailant and left defensive evidence of having done so

no wonder rape conviction rates are so low

ScottishMummy that would explain a lot and makes me feel very sad.

I suppose there will always be problems convicting when it is just one person's word against another.

The fact the the jury are starting out with a view that women are asking for it if they've had a drink, and that if they don't vigorously fight back (which I think people often don't) means they don't mind really, means that victims are truly stuffed.

No wonder no-one reports these crimes.

Goosegg, I was once that girl who didn't take enough care, and was raped and didn't report it because I was scared. But, I don't actually think you're comments are unreasonable. Of course it wasn't my fault, and it's not anyone's fault if a criminal takes advantage of them. But, it makes sense to try to find a safe way home, not get so drunk that you don't know where you are, etc etc. In this particular case, you should certainly tell your ap that she must take more care of the keys, never keep the keys and your address together, tell her how much it is costing you, and that you have discussed with dh whether she should have to pay since you think she wasn't very responsible, but have decided not to on this occasion.

I absolutely agree ? thieves and rapists do look for vulnerable people to take advantage of ? but does that then give the rapist or thief mitigating circumstances in the eyes of the because they do then stumbles upon a vulnerable person?

I think it might be perfectly reasonable for someone to say, ?I shouldn?t have done that ? I should have turned right, not left; shouldn?t have had that last cocktail; should have got a taxi (though that is a minefield of it?s own); shouldn?t have kissed him, but humans are complex and fallible (this is the crux of your argument I think) victims just as much as purps, and being foolish does not equate to being deserving of an awful crime such as sexual assault or mugging. It is a false equivalence ? there is a woolly area but the aggressor must always take responsibility for the criminality of their actions.

The sad thing is some people will always find themselves in vulnerable situations ? not always by their doing. A woman raped after walking naked in a back alley at will probably be admonished (depending on the circumstances of how she found herself there ? but the rapist should not then receive a lighter sentence, or be given points for diminished responsibility, should they?

i'm reading this on my mobile, so the thread has moved on i'm sure by now.

I have only read some of your comments, goosegg, and you are so fucking wide of the mark. In fact, I find your primitive views pretty fucking repugnant.

I just hope you are never raped as I was. You should be ashamed of yourself