Should parents pay nanny's for the nanny to take them out?

[NannyL24]

Can I have some advise please I started working as a registered nanny for a nurse last September due to cold weather and dark nights and alot of evening shifts I haven't needed to take the children out and they haven't wanted to they've been happy enough staying home playing outside with friends and playing games with me and other games they already have. However with it becoming warmer and the holidays I have said from day one of starting I am happy to take the two (6 years old and 8) to museums, bowling, cinema, parks etc. However this was recently brought up and the parent said I could get paid back this via tax which wouldnt be while a year later on a tax return and i doubt daily outings can be given back, I have said no to this due to working for an Income and not funding the children for a year out of my wages. Are parents meant to pay for their own children outings and even my costs as I am working? Just need some advise with me being new to this. Plus the mum already gets 80 percent back for childcare costs so doesn't pay my full wages out of her own wages

Ah, I knew you were going to say you were self employed. You’ve been very silly and have gotten yourself into a situation where you have limited protections under the law. I would be handing in my notice, whatever that means when you aren’t actually employed by them, and looking for a proper nannying job or set yourself up as a childminder if you insist on being self employed. Then you set the terms and your rates.

I think at the very least they need to provide you with a kitty you can use for any trips out and about. You should absolutely be reimbursed. Are you keeping a record of all your expenses? Have you got a contract? This makes me wonder whether they are paying you a fair wage….

We have part time help with our disabled child and we pay;

Fuel supplement on days she takes him out in her car £5-£10 depending how much driving is involved.
All outing costs (admission, gift shop, extras, parking…etc)
All food costs (he loves mcdonalds) this also includes her food as she eats with him!

I thought this was pretty standard tbh

Oh but I did like the word dummarises 😁

Yes you can be a self employed nanny, its hrmc guidelines that determine if op falls into this category, not us here on mumsnet. If op has any concerns she can speak to hmrc to check and she can tell them all the details of her work . They will be able to tell her.

What a cheek, if she wants them taken out she needs to pay. Why on earth would you pay for it. CF at the finest

Exactly this, and from the OP I'm still clueless as to what is meant by all this "claiming" back. I can't make head nor tale of it.

How bizarre for her to say this to you? She's a nurse, maybe she's not loaded, but how much of a piss taker is she? To expect you to fund trips out for her kids and get remunerated after spending hours filling out tax forms in a years time?

Outrageous. If she won't pay for days out then it's just free stuff or staying home. She should be paying your travel costs as well as wages ,etc to take them to the beach or country park, even if the entrance itself is free.

I think the op and or the children's mum are confused as to how you claim expenses on your return. I'm assuming they think you claim the days out as expenses and hmrc pays money back to you (if only 🤣) rather then your expenses being part of the calculation to what tax you owe hmrc.

I think the idea is that the Nanny claims that the outings with the child etc are actually Business expenses and so she can use them to offset against her tax she pays annually as a SE person. So she will not get the money back, she will just pay less tax. Its a nonsense.
Depending on how she is set up as SE (not that I believe she is from the info she has given) she may or may not be able to do this.

Nanny here.

In my view this is wrong!

My last family had a kitty pot which was for the children and me ( if I wanted lunch on days out too )

Any extra expenses then I just kept the receipts.

In my experience be careful of those who take the piss!
At the end of the day your working for a living

I wondered that. So many people in this world think us self employed can "claim back" the cost of things...if only they knew what we "claim back" is the right not to pay tax to the value of 20% of a purchase.

Yes, I wondered if that was what was being inferred, but then I couldn't for the life of me work out how off-setting an expense on a tax return was in any way the same as HMRC paying someone to do their job.

The "claiming back" is complete nonsense in the context here. If you incur certain expenses in connection with your work or income you can set those costs against your pre tax income to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

For example if you were a self employed plumber you can set the cost of petrol, vehicle insurance, etc used in the course of your business to get to and from the places you're working (but not just to get to the main office) Let's say the plumber takes in £50,000 per year and spends £5,000 on those. They deduct the £5,000 before calculating tax due. They reduce the tax bill- they don't get £5,000 back.

A nanny will only be self employed if she is providing a service to several families and she sets her own hours and days of work.

They reduce the tax bill- they don't get £5,000 back.

If only 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Well, in respect of your last paragraph, those are two components of a much longer list of things which might go towards supporting a claim that a worker is self-employed and not an employee, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

What I was meaning about being unclear from the OP was quite what has been said - it sounds like op is saying the parents were saying OP could spend her own money on the children and HMRC would pay her back, but because that is such a nonsensical thing for anyone to have said, I was thinking there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.

As in, OP pays for children, is then paid back by the parents (as indeed my clients do when I buy things for their use), and this goes on the tax return as a legitimate expense. That would have made more sense.

Usually nannies have a card of expenses and parents give them £100-200 a month to spend on the kids trips etc (or whatever amount you agree to) was this discussed when you started? What did you put in your contract?

I'd just say to her that having a kitty card for expenses is how you've always worked for families and if not you'll stick to free trips like the park.

Well, in respect of your last paragraph, those are two components of a much longer list of things which might go towards supporting a claim that a worker is self-employed and not an employee, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

It's actually in real life rarely difficult to determine whether a work situation is employed or self employed. And I say that as some one who has employed a nanny in a personal capcity, employed people in my capacity as a partner in a law firm and given advice (from the employment team in my firm) to clients.

I do not disagree with you.

Who provided the contract/ terms and conditions for this role?

Are you invoicing weekly/monthly

Are you also working for other families when this one doesn’t need you

I've only read part of the thread so apologies if everyone has shouted this repeatedly but I think you are failing to understand the problem.

This arrangement where you are self-employed and sort out your own taxes and NI puts you at a huge financial disadvantage compared to if you were employed by these people. You are (I think!) not doing anything wrong, but they are. Because they are supposed to employ you, with all the costs to them, and benefits to you, that that entails. They are weaselling out of paying what they are supposed to pay, and it's bad for you.

Back to the issue of

I could get paid back this via tax
What does that mean? Do you even know? Do they? I wouldn't normally offer tax advice in a public forum but you seem to be even more clueless about this than I am - I have been self-employed for a few years now and do my own tax return (mine is very simple) and I don't get money back for anything. The cost of expenses is deducted from your overall earnings, and then you pay tax on what is left, that is all. So if you pay £30 for an outing out of your own earnings, you just don't have to give the tax man a share of that £30. You've still forked out £30 though! So unless you factor that in to what you are charging your clients, you are financing the days out.

Exactly. All of this. The only thing I will add is that any financial disadvantages of being self employed will be down to how much OP is charging for her services. It never ceases to amaze me how many SE positions I see advertised which are well under minimum wage when holidays and other benefits are calculated.

I think the message is clear now op that she should be paying for everything for both you and her children related to their care. This includes taking them out.

she’s a cf.

We pay for everything for our nanny. She doesn’t drive so we pay taxis. We pay for her travel to take dc to their hobbies. We pay for her food and buy extras in the shopping that we know she likes , just for her, like sweets she likes. We value her so we treat her like our family. I would never expect someone else to fund my children.

She’s not paying employers NI. She could get into trouble with HMRC for this.
It’s the same as a supermarket can’t tell a checkout worker to be self employed. A nanny is no different

Exactly. They’re deluded. OP might not even pay tax anyway!