Should parents pay nanny's for the nanny to take them out?

[NannyL24]

Can I have some advise please I started working as a registered nanny for a nurse last September due to cold weather and dark nights and alot of evening shifts I haven't needed to take the children out and they haven't wanted to they've been happy enough staying home playing outside with friends and playing games with me and other games they already have. However with it becoming warmer and the holidays I have said from day one of starting I am happy to take the two (6 years old and 8) to museums, bowling, cinema, parks etc. However this was recently brought up and the parent said I could get paid back this via tax which wouldnt be while a year later on a tax return and i doubt daily outings can be given back, I have said no to this due to working for an Income and not funding the children for a year out of my wages. Are parents meant to pay for their own children outings and even my costs as I am working? Just need some advise with me being new to this. Plus the mum already gets 80 percent back for childcare costs so doesn't pay my full wages out of her own wages

I think you should quit and find a new position. Then tell them in an email why. These outings shouldn't be your concern. Tell the kids to ask their Mum when they want to go to expensive places, not you.

She's ripping you off. What she pays in tax from her own job is irrelevant.

She won't owe you holiday pay, sickness pay, redundancy pay.

You are not (from what you've said so far) self-employed, the fact you're registered as self employed is irrelevant here.

Who sets the hours you work/days you work - her, or you?
How are you paid - weekly/monthly/hourly, or per job?
Exclusivity - are you free to work for other families and pick and choose those hours, or do you work exclusively for her?

IF you were self employed, then yes you could claim taking the kids to things as a tax expense and deduct those costs from your taxable income. However if you put in a claim for hundreds of quids worth of trips to the zoo, icecreams, bus fares etc... and your tax return is audited, they are going to throw that out, because you are not self employed.

So theres a fair chance that at the end of the tax year, you'll be stiffed and she will skip off into the sunshine having ditched you the minute you raise a complaint, and she won't even have to pay you redundancy.

https://www.payefornannies.co.uk/self-employed-nanny-understanding-employment-status

With most jobs, including nannying, you don’t get to choose if you’re self-employed or employed by your boss. Your status is down to the requirements of your job.

For the most part, if your boss sets the days and hours you work and pays you an hourly amount, and you are only working for her, you are almost certainly employed and she is breaking the law by not treating you as an employee. Which means, amoung other things, dealing with your PAYE, paying holiday and sick pay, setting up and contributing to a pension.

You could try calling ACAS to see what the situation is and what you can do about it. I would, in any case, start looking for another position. Your boss is awful anyway over the expenses for trips - what an absolute cheeky fucker suggesting you can reclaim tax - that doesn’t even cover what you’d spend! Also, I suspect she will let you go as soon as you raise any issues about fair treatment. You can sue her for any money she should have given you but doesn’t (like the pension contributions and holiday pay) but you’ll still need another job.

With most jobs, including nannying, you don’t get to choose if you’re self-employed or employed by your boss. Your status is down to the requirements of your job.

That ought to be a stickie on this part of the forum.

HRTFT. CFs. I've never heard anything so outrageous for any nanny. I assume you're not self-employed.
I'd be looking for another job.

As a previous employer of nannies I'm advising you to get the hell out of there.

I’ll echo what everyone else has said. Parents pay for trips out and associated costs. When I was a nanny one of my families gave me £150 a week to use on days out / activities. I will say they were very generous and very nice but actually the amount doesn’t matter. Another family needed a nanny because of hospital shifts and were clearly stretching themselves financially so we agreed only free stuff but they still covered petrol to places and ordered extra packed lunch stuff on their Tesco order for us to use. Parents pay for all expenses within a set budget each day / week.

whatever the budget or lack of you should not be out of pocket at any time.

I think you need to find a new family and a new role. They are not good employers and are taking advantage of you. You’re worth more than this. Move on and find a decent family who respect you. Good luck x

Thing is you are not actually self employed. It is a legally defined employment status, and what you have described would not meet the criteria. The employer should be paying a whole heap of other costs - employers NI being just one. This family are trying to avoid paying the taxes they should, and to avoid paying you what they should. They are also trying to pass their costs as employers on to you. Please do follow the advice given on here re: ACAS, and also read the information in the links several posters have provided re: self employment vs employment.

You are being ripped off.
You should not have to spend any money out of your own pocket to cover the costs of doing your job, unless it's an odd case of using an extra tenner because you didn't bring enough of her money and you get it back within a short period of time.

It is her responsibility to pay for any trips she wants the children to take, including the cost of your transport and ticket as you are only there as part of your job.

She wants you to be self employed so she doesn't have to pay your pension contributions and PAYE tax and national insurance.
She also won't have to pay you holiday pay or sick pay if you are self employed.

Is she paying you significantly above the average employed nannies wage so that you can cover these yourself?

You also are not working in a way that HMRC would class as self employed.

I worked for a uni years back (was actually working at several) and HMRC suddenly decided after a few months that one of them was not a self employed job.
They took most of my next invoice in backdated NI, tax etc..

Find another job for a decent human being.

When I was a childminder outings were included in my fees. But I worked from home and dictated my hours/service, it sounds like you should be employed and yes they should cover expenses. What if you asked for an extra amount in the holidays to cover outings say £80 a week which then you offset against your tax when doing your self assessment. BTW are you insured? as a self employed person it sounds like you need indemnity insurance.

I'd be looking for another family to work for, frankly.

And also if you take photos of children you need to register with ICO.

If you're acting as if you're self employed then you invoice monthly presumably, so you could in the short term add these expenses to the invoice? But there's lots wrong with that...you shouldn't pay tax on those outgoings. Why can't they just give you some pocket money?

Given the children's ages, are you a nanny or babysitter? Do you just do a few hours after school? Do you work elsewhere during the day?

I think you should be employed and you should be getting paid holiday and pension contributions. I would be looking for a new family who appreciate you.

This

It sounds like they can’t really afford having a nanny. Are you charging them a competitive rate for your area?
They should be covering all outings for their kids and you.
If I were you, I would be looking for a new job as I would not want to work for people like that.

I haven't read RTFT so I don't know if anyone else has explained this. If you spend, say, £100 taking the children out, from your own pocket, then put that in as an expense on your tax return, you will not get that £100 back. You will just have a small reduction on your tax bill. So the family are totally expecting you to pay for trips from your own pocket. Which is totally unreasonable. They may believe that the HMRC are paying for the trips (deluded) but of course this isn't the case. They are a terrible employer and they need to learn how to behave like decent human beings. I am a bit outraged on your behalf how badly they are treating you.

They should definitely pay OP.

I am a carer on Carers Allowance and when my son is taken out by 're agency I pay for any entrance fees food and expenses etc

Sounds like that are taking you for granted and are very tight with their money too. Don’t fall for it. Unless you’re very happy there I’d look for another family.

This is a nurse who gets some funding so no they are not 'loaded'.

OP You should not be out of pocket but it might be that your employer hasn't budgeted for outings.

I agree with all the other advice about clarifying your position.

At the end of the day the mother/family cannot afford a nanny or don't want to spend the correct money on a nanny.
Irrespective of the incorrect self employment status in this case, I find the mother to be very difficult and can easily imagine a scenario where she will delay your pay or not pay you at all.
Similar to starting a job or a supply contract for a company which is very likely go bankrupt, nobody would take the risk.
Your status is not clear. Are you a nanny just in name when in fact you are providing a child minder service? Are you self employed just in name when in fact you should be employed? You need to clarify these things yourself then raise them with the mother. She hasn't got your best interest at heart. All she cares about is to limit her costs for a very valuable service. I suspect she knows the rules but is lying to you giving you false advice in order to avoid paying properly.
As far as HMRC are concerned you are fully responsible for being truthful in your declarations to them and following the rules. You cannot claim you didn't know the rules or the mother told you to do certain things. It is you personally registering as self employed when, in reality, you may not meet the criteria for self employment. It is your responsibility to make sure you are doing everything correctly.

Forget about days out, please look for a different family and make sure all the setup is above board. The current situation is not fair on you at all.

As someone who work as a nanny for 17 years - absolutely DO NOT pay a penny towards a day out. The parents should be paying for you and the children, including reimbursement of any petrol used (if using own car). Obviously don’t take the piss and keep outings to a budget, thinking up free/cheap activities for the majority of days and only doing more expensive trips once a week/fortnight (or whatever works for them and you).

Find a new job pronto tonto.