The Curse of Boff strikes again - this nanny has decided after a fortnight in post that petrol is too expensive

[BoffinMum]

New nanny started two weeks ago, all going well, but then she resigns out of the blue.

This time, the cost of petrol and her 50 mile commute is blamed. She said she hadn't thought about that before taking the job.

I had a 'WTF???' moment as she was specifically asked about this at interview and by the agency.

Agency is being super and they are cross with her for messing us about, and they think she is being wimpy. So do I. She works 47.5 hours a week, so it's not as though her hours are mental for a nanny, either.

[cross]

sunshinenanny: I know, that's why I'm not SE, but unfortunately most girls down here are and refuse to be employed (and employers have no interest in being an employer)! My current employer tried to convince me that I would be fine and that they'd prefer me to be SE and it's better for me, even now they think I'm being silly about it but are paying my tax/NI.

The problem isn't helped by the having 2 or more part time jobs scenario, as some families seem to think that it means nannies can be SE if they have more than 2 jobs, and as part time work is pretty much all that is available down here it's not surprising. Add that to the fact that the nannies are mostly all under-25 and most don't really know any better about taxes and the legal bits, we have a pretty dodgy market down here at the moment. The only reason I know any better is because of nannyjob and MN, I would be just like the rest of the younger nannies in Brighton (and the rest of the country) otherwise!

There does need to be a reform about it all tbh.

Callaird, that is certainly my way of thinking, steady income and working for good bosses whenever possible is worth a lot more to me than occasional peaks of income and so much time on the bench that the peaks are cancelled out. My last-nanny-but-one thinks along those lines as well.

I think if someone has more than two jobs it is ridiculous for them to have to be considered employed. In Germany you have a 'mini job' system where you can take as many jobs you like for something like £400 a month tax free, and the employer pays a set flat fee for £100 a month for tax and NI. That suits the nanny market in some parts of the country much, much better.

Boff, whereabouts in the country are you?

We've had some shocking issues with nannies. The worst was the one who walked out when DD 2.2 and DS 10 months got chickenpox, saying she had a weak immune system and couldn't be near them in case she got it (tho she had had it already) and it compromised the babysitting she did in the evenings for other families.

I was very but said ok, well I'll let you know when all spots crusted etc. when I did call to let her know she was "safe" to come back she told me she had taken a job with another family and already started.

I saw her advertising again a few weeks later though so I guess that new job didn't "work out" either...

to you, Nanny Fran, if you're reading this.

Verity, I'm in Cambridge.

If someone has an immune system issue, then surely education and care are not suitable jobs for her to be working in? I would have thought a normal immune system would be a requirement of the job, surely? How on earth did she cope with her training? Small children get chicken pox all the time. Did she just clear off every time?

I am also wishing there was a system whereby when nannies flounce off for unprofessional reasons like this, taking jobs elsewhere without even having the courtesy to inform the family they were originally contracted to work for, that there was some recourse. I can't help thinking that if they were liable for additional costs incurred by the family as a consequence of their disappearance, then they would be less cavalier in their treatment of families and children. One nanny did this to me when I was about to return to work after maternity leave - she had had months to duck out of the job and signing the contract, but apparently we were once again a 'holding job' while she looked for something else, only she hadn't told us that. It probably cost us the best part of £4k to sort that mess out, in additional childcare and agency costs, not to mention how distressed it made me in an already postnatal sate.

If I had treated a nanny like that, I probably would have found myself in a tribunal for unfairly dismissing her - how come nannies are allowed to behave like that without any compunction or consequence whatsoever?

I know, it's disgusting. Her behaviour was, at least. I mean, ok, I did not ask her in interview how robust her immune system was, but why would you do a job like that of you didn't want to at least be prepared to look after sick children. I made her call our GP too, who said there was no real risk if she had had it before, and she bailed all the same. She was immensely flakey, though so I doubt it was just that. But to leave me in the lurch with two ill children (and poor baby DS was REALLY ill with it, 500+ spots in his eyes, ears, willy, one burst in his ear, ear infection, further infection, antibiotics etc etc) was just incredibly unprofessional.) she had the best cv of any nanny I ever interviewed too which just goes to show...something.

Shame you're not in London Boff, as I know some fantastic nannies there (who were our success stories, and then we moved away) who are looking for new families at the moment.

I wish I was in London too! We used to live in Battersea and I was very happy there. Most of my friends have moved out as well, now, though, so I wouldn't know anyone there any more really.

We are miles out of London and offering £25k-£27k gross per annum for 55-60 hours per week live-in and finding it incredibly hard to get anyone worth having. Terribly disappointing. I really understand the feeling that they're interviewing you, which is fair enough, it's always a two-way street, but sometimes the nanny-approach does seem to cross over into arrogance.
But then, if they're all employed and can be choosy, I guess it's an employee's market for nannies at the moment, so poor us (employers).
Sigh.

It really isn't an employee' market, believe me. I had a very interesting conversation with a couple of agencies along those lines. There are an awful lot of unemployed nannies wanting £££ and baffled as to why nobody will pay them it.

So how do they live? Are they all free-loading at their parents' house and waiting for that perfect job to pop up on their iPhone??? I am even considering whether I should start looking for a better-paid job so I can pay more for my childcare. As if over £30k per year (we also have nursery costs) were not already enough.

Boffin when I talk about meeting my living cost I am talking about just that. I would expect that in any job! It would be no good my being employed and sleeping under a hedge with no money for fares to work or to buy food. Or to be up in court for not paying my council tax.

I have never demanded an unreasonable wage but expect to earn a living one. An agency I was with years ago told a client that if you paid peanuts you got monkey's working for you and allthough I thought that was a bit harsh there are employer's who resent every penny they pay their child's nanny/childminder/nursery.

I don't see how being self employed would work.

Confusedpixie Maybe someone from the tax office should go into school in the final year and explain about the tax system and the consequences of tax fraud and not paying a NI contribution. These people make me so cross as it Makes it difficult for nannies who do things on the books like ourselves to find long term work.

The only people in our line of work who may be able to go SE are maternity nurses who do short contracts and then go to another position but I'm not sure what happens with them.

Verity, I have always looked after the children in my care when they were sick and am amazed at how precious some of the so called modern nannies are. Did you not have a contract with your nanny where she had to give you a months notice?

I live in a town that a local newspaper once called the most expensive place in the South East so allthough I don't ask for an unreasonable wage! I do expect a fair wage and as I said I am prepared to negotiate if I don't have travelling cost ect and the job is enough hours to give a living wage.

Boffin being employed is more about the timeline of a job than how many jobs you have. Self employed you hire out a service on a short term or renewable basis. It's not just about nannies; If I worked in retail and worked 2 days for John Lewis, 2 days for Boots and one in the local newsagents they would all be classed as my employers

sunshine I doubt boff is getting at you for saying you have an amlunt you at least need to earn, and you can ask, but if you don't get what you want and there's nothing else would you still flounce?

In fact most nannies on MN seem to have a grasp on reality. It's the others in the real world which don't. I had an interesting conversation with an agency who said nannies aren't prepared to moderate their expectations to pick up 2 extra days of work when the rare job comes up. I honestly can't believe the naïveté of some people - the jobs just aren't there and they think it's all going to get better.

SE might help because then nannies could set their rates, employees wouldn't be scared off by employing someone else and it would remove a lot of fiscal pressure in terms of sick pay, maternity (although that gets reimbursed holiday doesn't) and redundancy. Seems like many of them want to be anyway....although I don't see why!

verity that is shocking.

And I totally agree tax and NI should be taught in schools. It was certainly mentioned in mine in PSE when we were doing out GCSEs.

Well yes, we did have a contract, with a clearly defined notice period; she breached it.

When I challenged her on it (really out of desperation, I already knew I didn't want her looking after my children any more after the attitude she presented) she was completely unrepentant; it was all about her. She even texted me (the day she quit) "can't give your keys back today because I am working" - given she was working in the job she had taken while technically still employed by me and on leave because she couldn't work because my children were potentially contagious I had to sit on my hands for a bit to avoid texting something really unpleasant in response!

I didn't pursue her financially because, since she left mid-month, I didn't pay her at the end of the month (made a difference of a few days pay to her which no doubt she recouped from her new job) and filed her leaving date as the last date she turned up to work.

Anyway, sorry Boff for the hijack - just wanted you to know you are not alone and to warn EVERYONE off crappy nanny Fran!

And if anyone in SW London needs a nanny i can recommend two who are absolutely lovely and brilliant and never let me down and who I am still in touch with and would hire again at a moments notice if we ever went back to London or they ever wanted to relocate to deepest darkest Kent.

Frak I think a lot of the nannies and employers who want to be self employed do it to defraud the tax system. nannies cannot be legally SE so it's obvious they are not in the system. Which is why I said it's dodgy for the employers as they are the ones Mr Tax Inspector will chase up. I Know of a case where a nanny thought her employer had been doing her tax and insurance and they hadn't. The nanny became ill and went to claim benefit and the department for work and pensions ask her why she hadn't any NI contributions for the last 3 years? She told them she had been employed on paye and gave her employers details. Employer tried to tell tax office she hadn't been earning enough to pay tax. Stupid mistake as they had paid nanny by part cheque and it was obvious she should be in the system. Also agency confirmed hours nanny was originally contracted for.

The tax office went through all the employers bank accounts and tax affairs then proceeded to investigate them. They were made to bring all the nannies tax and insurance contributions up to date and they were threatened with prosecution. My friend is no longer working as a nanny as she is a carer for her elderly father but her experience has made me always make sure I am paid in a way I can prove such as straight into my account and that I am always given an end of year P60 and a P45 when I leave. It is one of the reasons I would like it to be law that people employing nannies should have to use a nannypay service.

I've interviewed a nanny who was asking £10 p/h net for 40 hr week. NO training, no first aid qualification even, limited experience. Lovely girl but: no.

And plenty of nannies who rock up and tell you: "I'm self-employed."

Anyway, I can see why the parents and maybe the nannies are confused about employment status if they are not internet junkies or have friends with experience of it who can advise BUT who do know something about freelance working in other sectors where you can invoice etc. It's easy to see how people become confused by this and don't understand why a 'domestic employee' would have to be different, logically.

I mean a part time nanny.

Whether nannies themselves should be confused, I want to take that back. I think they should know they can't be if they are professional nannies...but it might be hard to stand up to an employer on this one...lone employee, no HR department - it's not easy.

it's no excuse, but I can see how some might get bullied a bit.

It shouldn't be a law that people HAVE to use a nanny paye service, that's ridiculous. You don't need a PHD to work it out yourself. all that does is create a weird protected economic sector in the economy that is not state regulated. PAYE companeis make mistakes too.

sunshine: "Maybe someone from the tax office should go into school in the final year and explain about the tax system and the consequences of tax fraud and not paying a NI contribution." certainly a good idea, I do wonder how many nannies/families go SE out of genuine ignorance of the system as opposed snto just playing the system.

Lady: I get that gross in a pt position with sn care of two of the three kids Wish I could get that much, I'd be loaded

What amazes me is the lack of research into the employment status by families and nannies. Both just assume it's something but never look into it really.

The words preaching to the choir come to mine sunshine! I personally do a lot of voluntary work trying to get nannying professionalised, to make gross pay the norm so employers realise they have obligations etc and I know a couple of others on this thread are involved in one of those organisations too.

I can appreciate why on the surface nannies contracting out services could be a positive thing BUT that is not what the law says. Unlike you I think many nannies want to be SE so a) they can claim expenses, b) they can be sure their tax and NI are paid and c) so employer's who don't want to have the hassle of employment will pick them over the next nanny who will do it CIH on the black. Some are doing they best to abide by the law in their own way. I know of several cases like your friend - unemployment, maternity, redundancy, all sorts if entitlements that disappear when an employee isn't declared. In every case I've said they should shop their employers to HMRC and when it's been done its achieved results but too many still won't do it because it would jeopardise the reference. It's only thé ones who have nothing to lose who do which is a crying shame.

Unfortunately Voice don't have enough for nannies to be an effective support, BAPN ate getting there but they're not really big enough yet and too many nannies are still working without insurance so don't get the legal cover there. When I started nannying very few people had heard of nanny insurance - I got laughed at on NJ - then OFSTED made it a requirement and now everyone seems to take it seriously. That's ablyt the only good thing OFSTED ever did.

Sorry my last post sounded snarky - I don't mean it to be, but sadly it's not people on MN who need converting, it's the people you go to interviews with, the nannies you meet at playgroups who say they're SE etc.

Although there is the odd crackpot saying they're happy to pay CIH on MN they're rare! Or just keep very quiet. Which is another reason IF nannies could be SE it would just beets losing what happens. But they aren't so that's academic really.

But my point is that at least if a paye company is involved then by law the employer would have to register. In many of my jobs I haven't even been given payslips, in what other job would that not happen. I loved it when in my last job my employer used nannypaye and it was lovely to have payslips and not have to chase up my employer to make sure everything was above board and declared! I also worked for a couple of jobs where the employers had accountants who dealt with that side of my pay and you don't have to be an internet junkie to know your countries tax laws, It's the employers and employees business to find out what's expected. there's enough about tax fraud in the news. I knew at 16 that I had to pay tax and that my employer had to register for it. In those days we still had cards and and I can remember being sent off to the post office by my employer to buy my national insurance stamp to put on the card each week

I honestly believe that these so called self employed nannies and their employers are tax dodgers who know they are breaking the law. In any case ignorance of the law is no defence.

The nanny example I gave did not involve a friend but a cousin and at the time it caused her a great deal of stress and she was glad the tax office took over and persued her dishonest employer.

Sorry Boffin didn't intend to go off subject and frak didn't mean to get defensive I'm just a bit tired

It's not helped by HMRC not knowing their own rules. There are no end of nannies who insist that they've checked it and it's apparently fine or they started doing it 10 years ago and nothing can possibly have changed. I did SE ad hoc work in 2007 and noone at the tax office was even remotely surprised that I registered as an SE nanny.

However now as an employer I wouldn't want to pay an extra £150odd a year to a company to do something I can do myself. Thankfully the country I now live in has a govt site where you do payslips for free, they debit your bank account and if you don't do it via them you don't get the equivalent of tax credits or get to deduct your childcare from your end of year tax bill. Another argument for tax deductible childcare - if you want to save then you have to employ your nanny legally.