Where is the respect for nannies?

[Caramellatteandchocolate]

I have been a nanny for 15 years. I have had mainly very sucesfully positions, but the odd one where families have been completely out of order and generally lacked respect.

Having read through a number of the the threads I have to ask where is the respect for nannies? We generally work much longer hours than the parents, we look after what should be the most precious thing in a parents life, but yet constantly have to put up with mothers being petty and unreasonable, is it a jealously thing or what?

Many mothers are quite rude to there nannies and very unreasonable, think that they can treat them like something the have trodden in and expect them to be slaves around the house!

Many families don't think twice to paying late, coming home late and not apologising or offering to pay the extra or offer the time off, yet if the roles were to be reversed the nanny would be given a stern talking to. If a nanny is unwell they are often made to feel guilty for the inconvienience is has caused, when we ar all human and occasionally can't work.

As a nanny we have no protection and is the only job where people get taken advantage of and treated with such little respect, it just wouldn't be allowed in other professions cause people would have grievances made against them.

Most of us do a fantastic job, please remember a happy nanny means happy children!

I'm sure there are people who advertise themselves as a nanny and think it is an easy job or a holiday job. I think some people think it is quite glamorous when I tell them I'm a nanny...

More - Most of my nanny friends have cars for use at work - not because they have demanded them because it is given as it is seen as essential to carry out their job. I have the use of cars at work and sometimes use my own. I am happy to do whatever my employer wants or whatever is available at the time.

Boff - To be honest any job I've taken without an agency the family has had some kind of application process usually using a form to be posted back to them or at least an email with a series of questions regarding simples things from qualifications and qualities to 'what would you do in this situation' type of questions. I am used to be grilled in the application process! Infact I expect it - I would not want to work for a family who were not thorough as it would make me wonder what else they wouldn't do!

We do have a nanny car for work use, but the person concerned wanted an additional car for her own personal use at weekends. She was a married nanny in her 40s with an NNEB, by the way.

I do have a job specification but I think I will introduce a form as well, now. I don't suppose anyone has a template?

I can see if I have an old job app to give you an idea...

NannyW, I think my main problem with it is the implicit "We all get £10 per hour net and you are out of line/mean/misguided if you don't pay that", when I know for a fact that everyone around here gets about £8 to £8.50 ish in actual fact. However there is one gang of nanny friends around here who stick together and effectively operate a kind of cartel (or want to).

I know one of the other nannies in this group from the school gate and have met the wider group on one occasion and they were nice enough, but I did think they bad mouthed the parents they worked for rather too much for my liking. Anyway, that is just their gang and I don't think this is typical behaviour for nannies if I am honest. But pushing rates up 50p, £1, £2 an hour with no regard to the annual gross implications of this, as though they are children telling parents all their friends get more pocket money, that is quite common IME. This whole net pay anomaly should be banned or something!

Thanks in advance for form, NannyW. Much appreciated.

Boff I will send you my 'so you want to work for me...' form.

Actually if you google nanny application form lots of things come up, you would probably need to tailor your own to make it fit your family.

You would probably want to consider things like:

Smoker?
Single/married?
Clean driving licence?
Previous salary - can you even ask this?
Previous Experience? Dates and main responsibilities
Employment history?
Happy working with/around animals?
Allergies?
Qualifications?
First aid?
Tell us a bit about yourself type of question hobbies likes dislike etc
Why you are/want to be a nanny?
Childcare ethos or vision - style of care you offer.
Asn experience?
Newborn experience?
Twin experience?

Along with obviously contact details, can't think I've missed anything appart from the 'give me a situation when' or 'what would you do when' type questions which I think are better asked at interview.

Don't give them the option to negotiate then. I know nannies who earn more than me however I think that I am very lucky in my job as my employers are very good to me in other ways. If that is what you are willing to pay then you just have to say that. I have turned down jobs because it wasn't financially worth it and I'm sure that you would understand if that was the case for someone (even if you couldn't fix the problem). Just found another application of mine and it is very similar to what I've written. Also asks about the types of things I would be expecting or would like to do with the children during the day.

"I was thinking of my friend covering the Wednesdays as I do not work 5 days, i have my own housey things to do Wednesdays ... Im not sure what the average is. Among my group of friends we average £10 per hour net. With both my jobs at the moment I get £10ph net. In my job I was with for three years (and with taking my son for all the hours) I was on £10ph net and no cooking or chores."

Why would they even apply for a 5 day a week job (I am assuming the job was for 5 days) when they didn't want to work 5 days.

£10 net per hour... wish I got that... and I don't have a child in tow, and a I do cooking and some household chores.

No wonder they didn't get the job!

I quite like the form idea. However probably best not to make it like a County Council or Civil Service application form... those can run to many many pages and are very tedious to complete. They seem to take the place of asking for CVs, are not specific to the job role, so everyone has to complete one from the junior post clerk to senior managers.

Might be interesting to see what responses you get to sending out a standard form to each person who expresses an interest. It may well stop some taking the application any further.

The form should be completed either as hardcopy or electronic I feel. Two options should be sufficient to give the majority of applicants the opportunity to complete it (regardless of computer issues).

Digressing to the net pay issue, ANA said today in a webchat on Netmums that it's best to quote gross rather than net and that member agencies were "trying to convert nannies to speak this way" See more on my nannynick.com/2012/01/18/ana-says-best-to-quote-gross-rather-than-net/.

Personally I feel it's the agencies needing to be converted... they are the ones who advertise the jobs as Net.

We digress... or do we? To be seen as professionals, I feel nannies must stop negotiating Net pay deals and agencies advertise Gross wages, so nannies looking for work know that pay is done Gross.

Oh I really need an Edit post option. Must take more time when writing posts. Mind you posting on Mumsnet is not like a job application. When completing a job application form you write it, proof read it, get someone else to proof read it, and then send it.

I think you are right. If agencies refused to discuss jobs in net terms, then the whole thing would go away. As it is, there will probably have to be legislation before that happens.

I don't think anyone is saying that all nannies are great. There are bad nannies and good nannies, as there are bad doctors and good doctors, bad teachers and good teachers etc. However, being able to quote a few examples of a bad nanny shouldn't undermine the respect for the profession as a whole.

I'm not sure about the form thing. I think the nutty nannies may sound better on a specific form as they'll be restrained by the questions. Allowing a general email shows the person's motivations and attitudes more clearly imo. For example, with BoffinMum example. there probably wouldn't be a question 'would you like me to change my working hours to suit you?', unable to put that on the application you may find these people get to interview before you realise what idiots they are.

Hohoho, that has certainly been the case with some agency nannies that have come here for interview, who were properly briefed by people I respect, but who still think the deal is we try to impress them and then they decide whether to work for us or not, i.e. no real dialogue, or understanding of dual career couples, which is odd when you consider who the bulk of the employers are going to be. Anyway, I've said my bit on that already.

I think the email extract I posted up here wasn't even one of the nuttier nannies. This is a 'mainstream' nanny that has been used by friends of mine. I reckon about 50% of the experiences I have with potential nannies are like this though. Perhaps that is why I have been feeling so dispirited about recruitment.

I think the poster has forgotten the fact that she is an primarily an employee, she should be the one respecting her employer too. Nannies are exceptionally highly paid - especially in my area, often earning more than experienced teachers. I'm sorry but they do need to remember this. There are a lot of dreadful nannies out there - I walk past several everyday pushing a buggy chatting away on their phones when they should be working or ignoring their charges in a preschool class.

We have numerous posts on the fact that many nannies feel its their right to take their child to work with them and not take a pay cut.

I actually think that the nannying profession would be improved if it were more regulated - possibly with the same protection as other professions such as childminders/opticians etc have ensuring they have to be registered to call themselves a nanny. They could then be subject to ongoing training and recreditiation.

My nanny is fantastic and I think she's worth every penny i pay her - but she is my employee.

Looking back at the OP (and the dodgy spelling, but we'll put that to one side):

"We work longer hours than parents" - actually parents spend all day in paid work and then evenings and weekends doing what the nanny does in the daytime, while the nanny has a good relax over the weekend. So basically there's very little break at all for parents.

"Constantly petty and unreasonable" - like a goodly proportion of workplaces then. I certainly experience this on a daily basis.

"Paying late" - this happens to me sometimes. I was paid late in December and also my pay has been miscalculated three times in the large organisation I work for. But it's fairly normal.

"Working late for no extra pay" I have to do this all the time, even on holiday if the job demands it. Sometimes I have to work away from home overnight. It's what you do in a modern workplace.

"They are often made to feel guilty for the inconvenience the nanny has caused" - medium and large organisations call you in for a meeting if you are ill for more than a couple of days or so to manage your attendance and performance.

So OP, I think if you spent a bit of time in a larger workplace getting experience outside the domestic environment, you would realise it's not actually all aimed at you personally - some of this is just being at work in the modern age.

'"We work longer hours than parents" - actually parents spend all day in paid work and then evenings and weekends doing what the nanny does in the daytime, while the nanny has a good relax over the weekend. So basically there's very little break at all for parents.'

That's very presumptuous. The nannies with own children you speak of will be looking after their own children and who is to say that nannies don't have a sick relative/voluntary position/weekend nanny job etc etc. There will be nannies who have a lovely relaxing weekend (I'm one of them), but there will be nannies who have things to do on the weekend just the same as doctors, teachers etc etc. You can't group all nannies together! Also the OP is referring to paid working hours (which are usually longer for nannies than the parents for obvious reasons). Do you think a teacher without children deserves less respect from parents than one who has her own children

'"Constantly petty and unreasonable" - like a goodly proportion of workplaces then. I certainly experience this on a daily basis.'

Two wrongs don't make a right, 'yes I'm petty and unreasonable towards my nanny, but that's how my boss treats me' isn't justification. Nannies are entitled to have a moan about a 'petty and unreasonable' workplace, just the same as teachers, doctors, vets, office workers etc etc.

'"Paying late" - this happens to me sometimes. I was paid late in December and also my pay has been miscalculated three times in the large organisation I work for. But it's fairly normal.'

Again two wrongs...Also you're not a large organisation are you. Your one/two people employing one/two people it should be easier to make sure you pay on time. Nannies are entitled to have a moan about late payment, just the same as bus drivers, dentists, clowns etc etc.

'"Working late for no extra pay" I have to do this all the time, even on holiday if the job demands it. Sometimes I have to work away from home overnight. It's what you do in a modern workplace.'

Two wrongs etc etc. Nannies entitled to have a moan etc etc.

'"They are often made to feel guilty for the inconvenience the nanny has caused" - medium and large organisations call you in for a meeting if you are ill for more than a couple of days or so to manage your attendance and performance.'

I don't think this is the same as being made to feel so guilty you come into work sick. I wouldn't mind if my boss wanted to have a meeting/see a doctors note if I'd been off sick and it wouldn't make me feel guilty.

'So OP, I think if you spent a bit of time in a larger workplace getting experience outside the domestic environment, you would realise it's not actually all aimed at you personally - some of this is just being at work in the modern age.'

Totally agree that it's not personal. Some employers will treat all fairly, some won't. It's not a personal attack.

I do think it is important for a family to impress their future employee. Similarly when you join a private organisation in a role where there may be competition for you they may offer perks and tell you why it would be good for you to work for them and not some other company. Part of the recruitment process is to make sure that both parties are happy with the arrangement. Now I know in a lot of places that doesn't happen as people are desperate for jobs but I think that the ideology should still stand.

Maybe nannies where you live feel and act like this as they know it will be easy to get a job? When I found my last job I had three interviews set up and then I was offered three jobs! it came down to me choosing who I wanted to work for so if you want me you have to have been nice to me in the first place! One family I never would have worked for because of the way she screamed at her child as I walked in the door and then her general flippant attitude to me...but that's another story.

I think there is a lot of unfairness in nannying but that has maybe come about from a poor or even casual relationship where the nanny is last to be paid etc. I think even when something happens to you in your workplace you shouldn't really mirror that experience onto your nanny if you know that you didn't like it. I agree that sometimes these things just happen but I do think it is important for a nanny to be looked after and in the future I will probably be using one and will do so as I will consider her/him to be one of the most important people in my (future) children's lives so should be treated as such.

Also Bof, I think often nannies put more into the hours they will spend with your children...I plan and constantly have activities on the go as I am paid to so whereas perhaps you know that it is okay to pop the tv on in the background or tell the kids to calm down whilst you have a cup of tea. Nannying is intense as you are trying to do your best the whole time you are there whereas being a parent you can do less in the time you have. I do understand that parenting is constant however but I cannot agree that nannying is just being a parent.

Boffin really petty pointing out spelling mistakes. Nannies that are not single cannot go home and relax at the weekend. If you spend the weekend catching up that's not your nannies fault you chose to work and have a nanny and if you stay away for work you must have known that when you went for the job.

Boffin your demands are like the employee demands of a supermarket - all one way and top down. A Nanny is not simply an employee - there's much more to it than that. I notice you have had several. I'm glad I don't work for you - and I can spell and that even

And Fraktious How you can say one person is better than another because of what they earn is beyond me.

Spenditwisely you usually find that people that have to point out they are above someone else are usually very insecure with themselves.

I was making those points because I feel that it is actually a two-way process and that both employer and employee need to be realistic and flexible in the modern workplace.

And of course I have had a lot of childcare in my life! I have four children and the oldest is 24, the youngest is 2. It's pretty rare to keep someone in post for two decades!!

redglow, if you were writing to a potential employer for a £36k job, that involved supervising homework amongst other things, would you really send a messy email like that? I don't think it's petty to expect proper spelling and grammar in a work-related contact.