A concerned parent has just come to our door...

[thesoo]

..to tell us that his wife has concerns about the way our childminder is caring for our son.
We have been using this childminder for about 9 months and she takes ds and dd to a childminding group. The husband of (presumably) another childminder came to our door an hour ago, spoke to my husband, and said that his wife wanted us to know that this childminder regularly leaves ds outside in all weathers, sometimes crying for all or part of this time, and has no way of knowing he is safe beacuse he cant be seen from inside. As if this is not distressing enough, she has also been seen shouting at him while he is outside in the buggy, wagging her finger and saying ' it is your fault, if you were not crying you could come in to play'. My son is 18 months old ffs. In tears as I write this.
I would never of suspected this of the cm as she seems quite caring and gentle. She has told me that she does sometimes let him sleep in the buggy if he is not in the mood to play, but would never have suspected this.
I am not sure what to do next. Obviously will speak to the cm and tell her what I have been told, but I can imagine that she will deny it. This husband said his wife did not want to identify herself. I feel that I need some other corroboration. The husband also said that other childminders in the group were a bit scared to approach her as she can be quite touchy.
I was not around when this guy came to the door so not sure what to do. Should I try to contact one of the other minders for their opinion? Don't want to arouse suspicions if it is not true or an exaggeration?
Kids are due to go to the cm tomorrow, don't want to send them, thats for sure, just not sure what to do next...help

WannaBe, I could tell you tales of teachers, nannies, Children's Centre staff, holiday clubs and, yes, nurseries that would put their professions in a negative light. What's the point? It's no reason to try and influence parents to use one form of care instead of another and I wish you'd stop doing it.

This incident sounds suspiciously to me like a malicious complaint craftily made to a parent rather than OFSTED.
If a complaint was made to OFSTED, they'd want some evidence and they might turn up a motive behind the complaint. Much easier to sow the seeds of doubt and ruin the childminder's reputation with gossip - just look how anonymous parents on a messageboard are reacting!

the difference though between jobs such as teaching and childminding is that on the whole teachers/police officers/nurses etc have a hierarchy they report to, and generally they don't work entirely alone, which makes the escallation of complaints easier. That doesn't mean that there aren't bad people in every profession - of course there are. But professions where someone is working alone are a lot harder to regulate because it is generally a case of one person's word against another.

It is naive to expect that people wishing to complain would go straight to ofsted rather than to the parent whose child is affected. Because most people can relate to the fact that as parents, they would want to know if their child was being compromised, plus it's not rocket science to know that ofsted are ineffective.

rewdflow and wannabe, do you work in the public sector??? please tell us all if you could loose your jobs and livlihood on gossip and hearsay or have you both got lots of lovely employment rights, guessing yes or otherwise sahms..

oh and wannabe, never ever seen this behaviour in a parent or cm at my school or nursery, we would all pile in and interfere, you must mix with some very dodgy and unpleasent people.

the problem with childminding is that it IMO is seen very much as a job for parents of school-age children to do that ties in with their own dc. How often do you see threads on here from women looking for jobs and the first suggestion is "have you considered childminding?"

People do it because they feel they have no other choice, not because they want to do it, and as such there are probably an awful lot of people childminding who don't actually want to be childminding, and as such, aren't going to be the best at it.

There are a lot of people doing many jobs they don't really want to be doing, customer service/office jobs etc, the difference is that being a cm is very much a job where you're in the public eye and where people will notice more what you're doing. So if you're leaving kids in the car/unattended then being talked about by the neighbourhood is no more than you deserve quite frankly.

Thebody - I'm not really sure what you are saying here. The OP has been alerted to some pretty serious stuff by people who claim to have witnessed some appalling behaviour by her childminder, actually went to the bother of going round to her house to tell her, were prepared to leave their names and put in a formal complaint to Ofsted.

What do you honestly expect the OP to do here? Leave her child with the CM until Ofsted finally get round to investigating? Ignore the accusations completely?

Wannabe what a stupid sweeping a lazy generalisation..

i am a mum of 4 dcs, youngest 12. I work full time running my childminding business and DONT do it for pin money I pay our mortgage and many many cms do this as well, its a business career choice for me not a 'job as the kids are at home' and lots of cms are like this, trust me the level of paperwork and responsibility that come with running your own business in child care kinda stops the sahm just doing it for pin money anymore.

by the way what was your job you didnt say?? interesting?? do you have one??

Maisy its so tireing when people comment on the threads before reading them properly.

I have repeatedly said of course the poster had to investigate if I was the cm involved I would have contacted Ofsted myself, most cms would anyway to allow proper investigation.

To the couple who made the allegation, first of all the woman didnt even want to tell the poster her name so thats a bit strange dont you think... their cm has since distanced herself from these allegations. wonder why?

I am not saying allegations shouldnt be investigated far from it, we are all mothers hers arnt we??

BUT my point was the shocking number of posters on here who have condemned the cm on gossip and heresay, totally happy to blast her career, business and reputation and label her as a child abuser and then have the bloody cheek to say that well even if Ofsted dont find anything there is no smoke without fire.

Maisy is that how you would like to be treated at work??? is that fair do you think,, do you work??

"People do it because they feel they have no other choice, not because they want to do it"

this is why I now feel the need to lie about what I do for work. I have spent almost 20 years working as a childcare professional including working as a nanny, a doula and a maternity nurse. My children are all in full time school (and have been for years) and my husband could easily look after our children before and after school if I wanted to do a different role.

I am a childminder because I am bloody good at what I do and enjoy nurturing and teaching the next generation to be well rounded individuals.

Why do people assume that childminders couldn't do anything else? Why do people assume that since childminders work behind closed doors, they are neglecting / abusing the children in their care?

I am so glad that I have lovely parents that I work alongside that are friendly and open with me and fully respect the role I play in their childrens' lives.

Unless an official complaint has been made and/or the children are very reluctant to go to the childminder, i would put it down the hearsay and gossiping of the worst type.

I don't think anyone has condemned on the basis of gossip - mostly it's been advice to err on the side of caution, which seems perfectly sensible.

You still haven't really answered my question - what do you suggest the OP does now? Report to Ofsted, of course - but if you had been made aware of allegations of this nature when your children were in childcare as young non-verbal children, would you have carried on sending them to their childminder or nursery until Ofsted completed their investigations or would you have removed them, at least temporarily.

I work, yes. I juggle 3 part time jobs so effectively work full time which involves working weekends, evenings and during the day. I have 3 children, aged 14, 12 and 4. Why?

Paula hear hear hear what a fantastic post.

Maisy of course this needs investigating, noone says it shouldnt.

my point is that post investigation and a maybe finding nothing wrong many posters are still saying no smoke without fire so remove your child, this is so terribly unfair...

i ask if you work because I think its interesting to see if any job you, (or those on here so quick to condemn the cm,) have you would be effectivly sacked, smeared as a child abuser and villified without any evidence or indeed even when Ofsted find no case to answer.

some posters have said that Ofsted dont get the truth anyway..surely you can see that would be unfair, unethical and could potentially destroy another persons life... really cant you see this.

that is the concequence of your 'erring on the side of caution' destruction of a livlihood and reputation for your 'gut feeling'

please never serve on a jury will you, god help all of us working alone with children..

Oh come off it thebody - you still haven't said what you would do in this case. Would you honestly keep your child there pending the investigation - which is not going to happen in the next couple of days, is it? I wouldn't - I'd err on the side of caution to protect the child, NOT the livelihood and income of a CM - which is what you seem to be more concerned about.

Maisie, I would at least have a good sit down talk with the person that I had created a trusting working relationship over the last 9 months, who has been described as caring and gentle, and I would like think that I would listen to her point of view as much as a COMPLETE STRANGER.

I have just started minding a baby and over the very short period of 6-8 weeks already created a very strong bond with baby and parents and I would hope that after consistently showing parents photos's, diaries, learning journeys, inviting them to come and discuss anything with me, at any convenient time (development, change of hours, even just to lend an ear to a new mum or dad) would be more than gutted if they took the word of a person they don't know, who hasn't even got the courage to explain it herself over me.

ALL CMs are self-employed though, and that's the crux of the matter. Reputation is everything and there is bugger all you can do about it. I imagine it is like walking on eggshells keeping parents happy, but that's pretty much par for the course in any client/service provider role.

I am flummoxed however at posters automatically jumping to the defence of the accused CM. The OP has said in her threads that the following happened:-

1. the other childs' mum claims to have witnessed the neglect and comforted the child
2. The other mum's CM also backed up the neglect concerns but has since backtracked a bit, and didn't go immediately to ofsted
3. They all seem to live in a small villagey place, presumably where everyone knows everyone elses' business.
4. It's been implied that other CMs in the area are a bit scared of this CM
5. The accused CM has already gone and confronted the other parents' CM and reported back that the other parents CM is shifty and denying everything.

So it seems to me there were only ever three possible scenarios

1. What was witnessed was indeed seen by the mum but was a complete misrepresentation of the situation which was in fact entirely innocent (eg child was sleeping but woke up before CM spotted him, or had been placed out at request of nursery leader for making noise or something).
2. Nothing in fact was witnessed and the Mum and the Dad and the CM are making it all up to 'get' at the CM and damage her reputation
3. What was witnessed was neglect, and the parents felt the mum ought to know about it. The CM, being a bit wary of the other CM doesn't want to get involved because she's a bit scared.

In completely denying it, the CM has effectively rules out 1, so parents need to decide whether 2 or 3 is most likely. I'm not sure many mums would be plumping for option 2 as being the explanation to trust.

Saying that, if my nanny were accused of something like this I would know without a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't true and I'd be tracking down the accusers on my nanny's behalf and defending her to them. The fact that the OP didn't do that, but is tied up in knots about it all suggests that she herself has doubts over the CM.

thebody what other people do for a living is irrelevant here.

The reality is that when you work in a customer based environment, if the customer is dissatisfied with the service you provide then they have the right to withdraw their custom as they see fit. That is life.

And I realize that it is a little simplistic to refer to the children you look after as customers, but ultimately that's what they are - or their parents are at least. And the fact that these are children makes it all the more important that everything you do is done exactly right - you only have to look at how people judge other peoples' parenting, it's all the worse when it's not even the parent doing the wrong thing but the person who is being paid to look after the child.

It is unreasonable to expect people not to talk about it if a childminder (or a parent for that matter, but we're talking about childminders here) consistently left a young toddler in a buggy to cry. Even if they were to inform ofsted and an official investigation were to be launched, if people witness that kind of treatment of a child you can't expect they not talk about it. After all what happens if the ofsted investigation proves there is no wrongdoing - just because ofsted said it didn't happen doesn't mean that it didn't, especially if there are witnesses.

Talking about these things does not mean one is "dodgy" in fact I think that not talking about it is indicative of a bit of covering up going on there - no?

All the childminders I mentioned above have good and outstanding ofsteds. They all do the required things with the children they mind, the activities/crafts/baking/fill in the mountains of paperwork that are apparently required. I certainly don't believe that any of them are child abusers or guilty of child neglect, those are serious allegations and I certainly wouldn't be looking to throw those at anyone. But if I were a parent sending my child to a cm I certainly wouldn't expect that child to be left to cry for extended periods of time or to be left out of sight in a car while the cm collected other mindees. And unfortunately there's no real way of knowing that these things happen unless you are told by someone that they do. And if you are told that these things happen then you have to act first and ask questions later, because this is a child we're talking about.

Of course it is awful for a childminder if they are wrongly accused of something and it damages their business, but thebody, what do you suggest parents do? Put the childminder's livelihood over their gut feeling about their child's happiness/safety? No parent could do that.

My childminder is great, but if anything happened that made me doubt her or lose trust in her, or if I suspected my ds wasn't happy or safe in her care, I would move him without a second thought. It might be that she'd done nothing wrong and I was being totally unfair to her, but I would never leave my child with anyone I didn't trust.

totally agree with rosie, she puts it in a nut shell.

They did talk to her - well, her dh did

"DH has been round to both the CM and the concerned parents houses. CM denies everything completely, seemed genuinely shocked and upset. Concerned parents sticking to story and aghast at CM denial. Concerned parents chidlminder has also witnessed ds being left out, and left to cry.
Both sides seem equally credible/believable! The concerned parents will be lodging a complaint tomorrow.
I have spoken to another childminder, who backs up our childminder and thinks it is all nonsense.
No further forward. Have a solution for not sending kids this week which gives us a bit of time. Not sure beyond that. Just really want it to be not true."

I pity both the parents and CM, but unfortunately in this case my child's safety would come before a CM's income.

its not just income though is it? its about the childs welfare and happyness, trust, fairness, a relationship and commen sense.

my newest mindee has been with me for 2 years, the others far longer.

i would hope that one of my parents would know me enough and trust me enough to take my word and tell the complete stranger to bog off and see this as malicious gossip.

but acting as a mum I would pehaps call on cm a bit earlier to check all ok or drive by the nursery to make sure child isnt outside crying in the rain, thats sensible, and parents do that all the time, especially in the early days of care, no problem with that

but totally ignoring years of good service and smashing care, ignoring any outcome Ofsted might come to as I had a 'gut feeling' is dispicable in my opinion.

Ignoring your gut feeling about a childcare provider is wrong imo, and letting your child down.

gut feelings are dangerous, they can lead you into dangerous relationships as adults and children. i have had parents engage me over the phoen with a gut feeling that I am nice, i am but thatn not the point.

evidence, references and commen sense every time for me in life.

children much to precious to leave to gut feelings..

If a complete stranger came to my door and told me what they'd witnessed then there would be doubts in my mind, no matter how much I trusted my CM. Just because you know someone well doesn't mean they aren't capable of pulling the wool over your eyes.

Evidence? How do you propose getting that then - putting the child back into the situation that you've been warned about and sticking a camera up or hiding behind a bush?

References - they can't always be relied on. This childminder could have done similar before and the parents didn't know, or their standards could have slipped massively.

Common sense - what, like ignoring these serious allegations and putting your child back there regardless?

A gut feeling is never to be ignored, ever. You can't always drive by the CMs house in the rain, nor should you have to - indeed, you wouldn't even think it a possibility that someone might leave a child out in the rain...

I'm all for not taking your gut feeling as gospel but you have to have something to go on.

Just because you know someone doesn't mean they are incapable of wrongdoing. And you have to question why someone would want to make a malicious complaint for no good reason.

And what evidence? Ofsted come, they take statements from the cm, the parent making the complaint and it is the cm's word against the parent's. Presumably none of the childminders on this thread would be open to the idea of being watched covertly by ofsted or similar such body? so how are they supposed to gain accurate evidence? The truth is that it's impossible, so if all you ahve to go on is your gut feeling then you have to go with that.

Wannabe I am watched by parents every school run, I have no problems with this, i have parents picking up at all tiems, I have no problems with this, as a cm you are always being judged, thats fine.

you are basically saying here that it doesnt matter what the cm says or how long you have worked together, how happy your child seems in her care, if a complete stranger knocks on your door and makes lots of allegations against her, and they are eventually seen as UNPROVEN then you would still remove your child.

pathetic

In answer to your question and I am a nanny, not a SAHM or work for the public secter. What difference does this make to anything? I know loads of childminders and nannies some are good and some are bad. Sorry if the childminder is innocent but I would put my child first.

But let's be honest thebody, if someone made an allegation against you, and the parent concerned removed their child pending investigation, went to ofsted to report you etc, even if the allegations were found to be untrue, you couldn't possibly go back to how things were before because that trust will already have been broken. Even if the parent then apologised and said "oh I'm sorry, I realize that the incident never happened, dd will start back on Monday," you surely would always have in the background that the parent removed their child pending investigation by ofsted, and the parent would always have in the back of their mind that someone was sufficiently concerned to inform them/the regulators of your alleged conduct. It would put a questionmark over the whole relationship, surely even you can see that.

I agree with wannabe's post further up that said many childminders do the job as it fits in with their kids and not because they genuinely want to spend all day with someone elses children, thats true from my own observations over the years, both at the school gates and as a childminder myself.

the poster called paulamummyknowsbest sounds fantastic, but I really feel most childminders arent at all like her, she seems one in a million to me and her parents who use her are very lucky.