Am I being unreasonable with my childminder

[mimosa]

Today I discovered that my childminder had taken my 2 children (3 and 5) with her to do her christmas food shopping at Tescos. This was a 34 mile round trip in the snow and ice - very dangerous driving conditions. My 3 year old didnt even get out of her car - she feel asleep for the inward journey, which meant she would have been sat in her carseat for a minimum of 2 hours - so cross about that. (this then resulted in her not settling tonight - didnt get down until 9.30 which meant my night was gone) Which is why I am still up at 12.45 am
I feel that there was no education value, or fun value for my chilren and if she had asked me if it was ok for her to do this, I would have said no. Mainly on the grounds that if she had had a driving accident and hurt my children - I would have killed her with my bare hands! But also on the grounds that I am paying her (£90) a for her to look after my children - not drag them around the shops - their least favourite activity
I am so mad at her - and so is my husband - Also the children tell me another adult was in the car with them?? Who is this adult ? Have they been CRB checked.? Not happy but obviously I am a protective mum and so another perspective might help me sort my feelings out. Because at the moment I am seriously considering giving her notice. I have some other issues with her, but this could be the straw that broke the camels back - so to speak. What do other mums and childminders think?

I stand by what I said earlier however I also agree with the last 2 messages. As childminder's, we don't need to ask about everything we do as we are a service provider and not employed by one person. One family may insist their child never goes out whilst another family maybe insist they are always out. We can't please everyone so have to decide what service we want to provide and take it from there. I turn down families I feel wouldn't work for these sort of reasons. Before signing a contract, if this was important to you it should have been part of the questions you asked the childminder. Having said that......I'm surprised your childminder didn't get a permission form signed by you when you sign contracts (for outings and going out in the car0. This isn't a legal requirement but is something we should have regard for. But this bit of wording IS in the legal requirements so unless she carried out a full risk assessment before the shops trip, she is probably in breach of contract? You've decided to give notice anyway which sounds the best thing as I think yes, you probably don't like not having the control (understandable) but in case you find this wording useful, I thought I'd post it:

Outings (specific legal requirements):

Children must be kept safe whilst on outings

For each outing, providers must carry out a full risk assessment, which includes an assessment of required adult:child ratios. This assessment must take account of the nature of the outing, and consider whether it is appropriate to exceed the normal ratio required (as set out in this document), in accordance with providers' procedures for supervision of children on outings.
The assessment must be reviewed before embarking on each specific outing.

Mimosa
Good luck with the change in working hours. Sorry to hear your first experience with a childminder was a sour experience. Hopefully though if you did need one again in the future you wont be put off by this. There are amazing childminders out there.

Happymummyofone, I appreciate that childminders are not for everyone. However if you find the right one(s) you end up feeling more like family and the children are well cared for. And shopping trips, etc, can just add to the flavour of the day (as hard as it sounds to believe).

Seasons greetings all

ChippingIn Thu 23-Dec-10 09:50:27
Pippin - I hate all of this Ofsted crap. Northerner & her CM are both happy with their arrangement - they are her children, she doesn't need telling who she can and can't leave her own children with. There are less regulations about leaving a child at home alone than there are about who you can leave them with - it's bloody madness.

Using an Ofsted registered childminder should be a choice.

chippingIn - I have nothing against reciprocal childcare arrangements at all however I do believe that the person being PAID to do their job - ie look after the child should be doing it properly and within the legal remit. Its not 'ofsted crap' but its also a safeguarding issue. At least Ofsted reg'd minders are regulated - with unregulated care there is no checks or comeback. Not to mention that person is probably earning money and not declaring it.

I would NEVER leave minded children with someone else unless it was an emergency - to protect them and the child.

I make it very clear to parents before they sign their contracts that I will be taking their children out and about. I think it is the CM's responsibility to make sure their service is clear to parents.

I would never leave a minded child with anyone else, unless it was an emergency and their parents would be informed immediately.

I think you have made the right decision in this instance to reduce your hours.

Good luck and Merry Christmas.

I don't think 'not having another time to do the shop' is justification for doing it in the middle of the working day! I'm suprised by the nannies and childminders who think it is. Would this be acceptable in any other job? If you found out your child's school teacher had gone out for 3hrs to do her shopping would you be ok with that? You can't have it both ways...'i'm a business, I shut at six no flexibility' and then 'oh, but I need some shopping I'll be going in the middle of the working day'!

If it's of some value to the children, or if the parent has been asked, is it ok as a one off, then that's different, but in this circumstance I'd be annoyed.

but the whole point of having childcare using a nanny or cm is that they would behave as a mum would, so sometimes go to the shops/help with hanging out clothes etc

you cant compare it to a teachers job - wheres star? we need her output, she uses a cm and is a teacher

The whole point of having childcare is so you can go to work without leaving your kids home alone!

Going to the shops is fine, but not a big xmas shop, with one child left in the car.

I'm a nanny and don't behave as a mum would. I provide a child-centered day, which is surely my job!

If childminders (or anyone) wish to be treated as a business they should behave as a business. I don't think there are many other jobs where you can go and do your xmas shopping in the middle of work because 'you don't have time' to do it out of work.

You didn't think they would go out? what is your 3 y/o meant to do all day? I don't know about anyone else but there is only so many activites you can do in the house!! Things like toddler groups etc are all out of the house!!

The whole point of using a CM is so that it is a home from home environment. So you do all the things you would do if you were at home with the kids. So shopping (altho i don't think its app unless it is shopping for the kids, as i said we went shopping to get stuff to bake cakes), toddler groups, parks, library, soft play, school drop offs or just a walk to get out the house!!

So if u ever use another CM, then you can probably assume right now that they would take your kids out! But always best to ask!! lol

When I trained as a childminder a few years ago, it was made perfectly clear that we needed parents' permission for outings, including car journeys. The NCMA provides permission forms for this very reason.

Blonde - it may be true that legally cms can go where they want without asking the parents' permission, but it is not good practice. As for cms being just like mums - they are also supposed to be professionals who are part of early years' care and are expected to provide professional, child-centred care, not just fit the child in with their life. Besides, a sensible mum caught in this cm's situation would have avoided taking the children on a hazardous car journey, followed by a stressful and unpleasant shopping trip. As a mum in her position I would have sent my husband to cope with the shopping whilst I did things with the children. Why make them suffer too?

Mimosa - your childminder should have asked you to sign forms giving permission for outings. There are permission forms for everything and it can seem quite irritating, but it ensures both childminder and parent have an agreement and know where they stand. I think your cm had no business to take your children out in her car without gaining your permission first.

Childminders are a business, as excusemoi points out, and should behave as one. This childminder is entirely unprofessional, as far as I can see, and is just treating the job as a useful earner whilst she gets on with her day-to-day life.

Apart from the obvious problems you have stated, Mimosa, it is also clear that you and this cm have very different ideas about childcare (eg your attitudes to giving children chocolate). It would suit you better if you could find a cm who had a similar outlook to you. But I realise this is too difficult in your situation, and I'm glad that you have found a solution.

Lukymum - you are so right about there being some wonderful cms out there. My cm has a gift with children that I envy. Her first concern is always for the children and she would certainly never behave as mimosa's cm has done. My son absolutely adores her.

Mimosa - hope you can have a happy Christmas now you have made a decision. I think you have done the right thing.

ExcuseMoi - you are making the assumption that what you do is what all parents want. Some parents may want a child centric nanny - I wouldn't. I would want a nanny to do the things that I, as a Mum, would do. I wouldn't want my children thinking the entire world revolves around their every whim - I'd want them to have a similar day with a nanny as they have with me.

It's about finding the right Nanny/CM for you - not about there only being one way of doing things.

yy Chipping - I have declined a family whose ethos different enormously from mine (they wanted helicopter-style care, I specialise in hands-off Montessori-style care) and if the fit isn't right then it's just no good to the parent or the CM

ditto chipping - thats what my mb wanted - so yes we do lots of kiddi orientated activities :) but they also come to the shops/post office/dentist/vets

I object to anyone suggesting a childminder shouldn't be doing domestic tasks while they are looking after children. Childminders are providing a home from home environment for children, and it is good for children to be involved in everyday domestic chores as well as child-centred activities.
However, I don't drag children round supermarkets as they are incredibly boring. And I think she made a bad judgment about driving your kids in the ice. I would be really angry and upset too if I was in your position.
It sounds like she was in a bit of a panic with her Christmas preparations, due to the weather, and made a really bad decision. Nothing else she did was unacceptable, although maybe annoying for you. I think you should tell her you're not happy, explain why, and give her a chance to apologise.
HOw outrageous to suggest reporting her to Ofsted. Of course you need to discuss this with her and give her a chance to explain and apologise first. You have a contract with her, and calling Ofsted is a last resort if she is not responding adequately to your complaint. Imagine how upset you would feel if she decided to call social services cos your child had a bruise, without discussing her concerns with you first.

Paying while your child is at nursery and asking a late parent to come a bit early are perfectly normal things for a good childminder to do.
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chippingin I am not making the assumption that what I do is what every parent wants.

I am making the assupmtion that running a professional childcare business shouldn't include going (against the parents wishes) to a supermarket in bad road conditions, dragging a 5yr old round on a 'big shop' and leaving another mindee (age 3) in the car.

Let's not confuse an xmas food shop with going to the vets/post office/dentist etc. Of course one of the benefits of a nanny/childminder is children having access to all these activities that they wouldn't in a nursery, but these trips have some value to the child as well as being necessary. I can't see that this shop did.

blonds does your mb want you to carry on as normal and just drag her kids along? Post office/dentist etc is fine as you say, but if you went clothes shopping for you and then to the hairdresser, maybe for a sunbed and got your nails done and then a coffee with a childless friend, would she not mind? And would you honestly feel like that was a good days work?

no,my mb wants and is happy for me to do the usual everyday things she would be doing - so in this instance she wouldnt have a problem in me taking the kids food shopping

so no to sunbeds and nails but yes to hairdressers as they would have their cut at the same time iyswim tho again i have a hairdresser who comes to my house in the evening

tbh i rarely do any of that stuff as i work part time, and can do that on my days off but my mb trusts me enough that if i needed to do something then i could and she wouldnt mind

In this day and age there is NO need EVER to take minded children for full shops in supermarkets.
They can do it after hours or order on-line.

Anyway, it's a nightmare taking your own kids shopping let alone someone elses!

Merry Xmas!

I wouldn't take my mindees on a proper shop, I don't care how 'educational' it could be, what it would actually be is a complete nightmare. I do all my shopping on-line, or DP does it. I have taken older mindees for an occasional 'supplies' shop where I've written a list and they've had to practice their reading skills, but that was only for a max of 5 items, an Xmas shop is completely out of the question.

I take mindees to all sorts of places, parents signed a permission form when they signed the contract. The form doesn't mention an specific places but gives me permission to take their child to places that I think are suitable for their age. I would not take on a child if parent wasn't 100% happy to let me make my own decisions as to where to take the children.

BALD - I'm very interested in this 'helicopter care', what is that exactly, do you do helicopter MOT's and services on the side or something?!

i think children should get use to shopping as it is a part of life and if going shopping with your childminder gets your child use to shopping it can only benefit you. every saturday i use to get up early and get my baby daughter ready and head to the shops she was great, loved watching everyone, didnt try and grab everything she seen. now she is 4 and is still good at going to the shops. on the other hand my friend avoided ever taking her chidren to shops so on the rare occasion she did her daughter screamed and got fed up in the pram and kept trying to climb out, her son would run around the shop and not listen. i believe thats because she never took them there from an early age to get them use to it.

Totally agree mrs t

Same goes for learning to behave and eat nicely in resturants /out in public

Some children have dreadful manners but they learn from the adults around them

I am a nanny,hi Blondes I do think that the OP has a point with this one,She is not paying the CM to take her children for a two hour drive to get the CMs own shopping I think that as someone else has said why couldnt the CM go in the evening or even on line.I have not taken the children I look after out due to conditions.This caused us to miss your party Blondes, but I think to drag children out for two hours in a car is a bit much just to get the CMs shop.I do agree though that taking children we care for out to the shops,post office,libraryand occasionally out to eat is a large part of their socialisation. I know that the children you and I care for would behave very well when out and about because they have experienced many different situations and have been shown what type of behaviour we expect from them,Like you I am able to take the children wherever I want to but these are places that the children would find enjoyable.I understand that things are different for a CM but when it comes to the important thing s we are there to keep the children safe and happy.Sorry for waffling.

ExcuseMoi - you are saying that you do what every parent wants ... I'm a nanny and don't behave as a mum would. I provide a child-centered day, which is surely my job!

That, as a parent, would not be what I would want if I had a nanny. I would not want my nanny providing 'a child-centered day' I would want her providing a day as close to my own as possible - so no, it is not surely my (your) job - it may suit some parents, but certainly not all parents.

i think this is the straw that broke the camels op's back -she said there were other niggles

but i truly dont see the problem in taking children on a xmas/once off shop - if it hadnt have snowed twice then she prob wouldnt have even thought about going with dc during working hours

the snow has disrupted many peoples plans and a few of my pressies havnt arrived via online due to snow :( , tho hope postie will bring tomorrow/wednesday :) - so i can understand why the cm went rather than did online

yes its not my idea of fun taking 2 dc shopping at xmas in the snow, and yes the op said that her dc didnt like shopping - tough - sorry to be blunt, but children sometimes have to do things they dont want to do

and i keep saying the whole structure of a cm is that they do day to day things - home away from home

I think one of the problems is that the majority of parents would have tried to do their big xmas food shop without their children. In the past I have gone very early in the morning or late at night so that dh was at home to look after the dc. The shops are open all the time so their should have been plenty of other times the cm could have gone while she wasn't working.

chippingin as a nanny you are able, to a point, to dictate the exact nature of your job i.e. how much, if any, housework you do/ what hours you're prepared to work etc, as a result I have made it my job to provide a child-centered day. I have not said that every parent would want to employ me. If you are happy to employ a qualified and experienced nanny for 12-14 pounds an hour to drag your children round a supermarket (for their, not your, xmas shopping) then good luck to you.

May I ask, why you are so concerned about your children thinking the world revolves around them? Are you royalty? If not, I promise they'll learn soon enough that it doesn't!

i wouldnt want my daughter to think that the world revolves round her as it does not and never will. if her every need was meet by a childminder/nanny when in their care then. i would have a hell of a time at the weekend with tantrums ect as i do not jump to her every need and she is made to wait for things she wants/needs. so i would not be happy if everything a nanny/chidminder did was fitted round her she needs to learn that there are other people in the world and other things that need doing and that every thing isnt always about fun and games