Am I being unreasonable with my childminder

[mimosa]

Today I discovered that my childminder had taken my 2 children (3 and 5) with her to do her christmas food shopping at Tescos. This was a 34 mile round trip in the snow and ice - very dangerous driving conditions. My 3 year old didnt even get out of her car - she feel asleep for the inward journey, which meant she would have been sat in her carseat for a minimum of 2 hours - so cross about that. (this then resulted in her not settling tonight - didnt get down until 9.30 which meant my night was gone) Which is why I am still up at 12.45 am
I feel that there was no education value, or fun value for my chilren and if she had asked me if it was ok for her to do this, I would have said no. Mainly on the grounds that if she had had a driving accident and hurt my children - I would have killed her with my bare hands! But also on the grounds that I am paying her (£90) a for her to look after my children - not drag them around the shops - their least favourite activity
I am so mad at her - and so is my husband - Also the children tell me another adult was in the car with them?? Who is this adult ? Have they been CRB checked.? Not happy but obviously I am a protective mum and so another perspective might help me sort my feelings out. Because at the moment I am seriously considering giving her notice. I have some other issues with her, but this could be the straw that broke the camels back - so to speak. What do other mums and childminders think?

I think the weather means these are exceptional circumstances,and I'm sure she's not going to do it again.But I don't think she should be dragging children around to do food shopping, when you are paying her, if you are not happy with it.

Like others I owuld not have a problem with a trip to shops to buy ingredients but doing the xmas shop when she is being paid to look after your DC is out of order

chipping yes fully reg with nneb and nvq3

i charge £22 for 7.30 till 6pm

or £11 for 7.30am till 12.30pm
£11 for 1pm till 6pm

and i have parents still moan about it

all this week had a mother bring her child at 10am for 5 hours and pays me £11 cause she cant get her here for 7.30am and its still 5 hrs care i give up!!!!!!!!1

DMO how the hell do you make ur money? Where do u stay?? I'm In east Kilbride, Scotland and charge £4 per hour minimum!! It really wouldn't be worth my while if i didnt!! lol

Mimosa, i think you are maybe not happy with your CM in general?

I personally don't take my mindees to do a big shop. I do take them to thee supermarket if we are going for them. So for instamce other day we went to get stuff to make cakes with them and it was a very fun and enjoyable experience for them. But not a big shop, so i totally get what you mean there.

With regards to you being late? We close at a certain for a reason. i have done similar things to what you are describing. I previously had a parent coming at 5.59pm (i close at 6) to then faff about for ten minutes getting her child ready and talk about the day, hand over diaries etcetc I started getting the mindees shoes and coat on and my coat on and my DD's coat on and the minute they left my house i left right after them as i was going 'out' Did this for a few days until they got the msg and started giving themself time to come in and chat etc because quite frankly i don't want anyone still in my house come 6.15!!!

£4.50 is not a bad fee, depends on which part of the country you live in i suppose, i know of some ppl on MN that pay £6++ not including any food.

In my area it is not usual to charge for care when the child is at school but it is norml to charge if they are at nursery (like the local one within the school for 2.5 hours a day).

Her husband should be checked. I do not leave my mindees alone with my OH or anyone else who comes into my home as as far as i'm aware that is standard procedure. Altho she was probably thinking of ur child when she left her in the car with her hubby as wldnt want to of woke her up. Which she may just have thought that was a nice thing to do, without thinking of any other implications.

There are better ways to communicate that she has a difficulty with your being late, than using your children to make her point. A quiet word with you one-to-one would suffice I would think.

If she felt the need to communicate that she was inconvenienced, so strongly that she was willing to have the children cold and uncomfortable while they waited, I would personally question whether the working relationship is good enough between us. If it cant be improved upon, then I would consider changing childminders.

I know many childminders who DO do odd bits of supermarket shopping with the mindees and if it's educational, I don't see a problem with it (I haven't done it for a VERY VERY long time as had so many so young for a while that I just couldn't stand the thought of a supermarket with a triple buggy + sling or whatever lol). I do know a childminder who does her weekly shop with them but the parents are fully aware and fine with that. I personally think a Christmas shop with them was a very bad idea and not on really, even a weekly shop isn't on (imo) if the parents aren't aware of this. As for the road conditions, that's even worse. On Monday I only had 1 mindee (rest sick) so would have been a perfect opportunity to pop to the shops for a few Christmas craft bits (I wanted to get them to make decorations) but I 'risk assessed' (in my head as it was pretty obvious) and decided the roads weren't worth the risk so we didn't go.

My DH sometimes stays with the children/collects from school etc.....he's a registered assistant though AND I have written permission from all the parents. Unless they are registered, that's against the rules. Once I went to the park, got them all back to my house then realised I'd left something important. Dh offered to stay with the kids whilst I ran round the corner (back in my first year of cming) and I had to explain that even for a couple of minutes he wasn't allowed. So I dragged them back and just left our kids with him.

Coats on outside isn't too bad in itself (I don't do this but I know some parents who like it this way as means they get home quicker, one of my mindees tends to leave at 6.20pm when I finish at 6pm) as they may have put them on at 6pm to be helpful and then thought they were too hot in the house after a while so more comfortable outside (as they were in OUTDOOR wear). HOWEVER, it sounds like she was off? and if so, it's THAT I would find odd. I have one who used to be 5-10 mins late EVERY time and on a Friday night that gets really annoying. However I had one mum who was 3 hours late (9pm instead of 6pm) once due to flooding and I didn't find that annoying, I felt sad for her as she wanted to get back for her baby! I didn't charge and was very reassuring. If you are normally early, she should be nice about it. Sometimes if I have to rush off straight after they arrive, I have them ready (although rare) but as I rush them out, I'm very polite and explain why and I always end it with 'I wouldn't want you to think I'm being rude, I just can't be late' - they all know me well enough to know I'm not like that anyway.

The hourly rate imo is fine. I'm in SE and charge £4.30ph (£5ph before 8am and after 6pm and also for under 8 hours care in a day) although I can't believe it's morally correct to charge whilst they're at school. Yes, you sign to her terms and yes, it's up to her but if they are at school ALL DAY M-F then she shouldn't charge as they are not taking a space anyone else could use as that child would be in the over 5s ratio! I always charge all day if they're at pre-school or nursery but that's pretty standard as taking up a space.

DMO - you are BONKERS hun!!! My local holiday schemes charge a lot less too but I'm a totally different provider and offer something my parents would prefer than holiday clubs (some tried as needed to save money but then went back on my waiting list as didn't like them!). I charge my usual hourly rate so from 7.30 - 6 (you mentioned), I'd charge £46.50 - no chance I'm lowering it, it's my bonus income plus I spend a lot on taking them all out for day trips and so NEED this extra money. My rate is all inclusive so they don't pay ANYTHING on top.

DMO - what area do you live in? I cannot believe you have parents complaining??? WTF As for the cheeky fecker paying you £11 for 5 hours of her choice, put your foot down. Tell her you have a 'session' price and you are open for 2 sessions. She chooses a session or pays for 2 sessions as you cannot sell 2 halves of sessions. Be firm my friend!

Dmo - how on earth do you amange to survive charging that?

Op- you agreed to paying her while your dc are at school and signed the contract (obv you know better now lol) cm are se and techinally don't need to ask for permission to do things - whether to drive or go to a shop iyswim

Obv going Xmas food shopping isn't totally benifical for your dc but if she is working all the hours then maybe the only time she was free

If she had taken your dd into the shop would you have minded?

Just to comment on that last bit Blondes, I work 7am - 6pm, quite often don't get last mindee out til around 6.20pm then have my own kids to sort out, overnighters staying etc etc. I find it INCREDIBLY hard to get ANY shopping done, it stresses me a lot - HOWEVER, I see that as my problem tbh and I either send dh out or order online (I'm sat here as we speak worried sick that the Amazon order for my 7 yr old ds, to be from FC is going to arrive tomorrow!!). If I'd planned to go on X day and the snow had messed that up for me and I really was in a panic then I'd speak to the parents of my mindees and ask if they'd mind on this occasion (them knowing it's not like me to do this). We're all different but I still don't agree with her Xmas shopping with mindees.

Dear mimosa

I do sympathise with you, as both a childminder and a mum who uses more than one childminder.

I would say though, to think quite carefully before you complain to ofsted. If there are more issues that you have not been happy with previously maybe its an idea speaking to her first.
If the conditions were dangerous to drive in, there is no excuse for driving in it. With regards to the shopping however, using a childminder gives children the experience of a home from home. And in light of the time of year, christmas shopping, etc, shopping is understandable I think and maybe you can empathise with her. But it sounds like there's an underlying bad relationship.

The reason I say this, when anyone looks after our dear loved one we generally have little things which irritate us, but if they seem happy we can overlook things. With regards to charges I pay £60 per day for just one child, so £90 sounds reasonable. Maybe check with other local childminders to see what they charge.

I think its sooo important that you have a good relationship and trust with the person looking after your children or it can build up and cause you a lot of concern and you can feel more and more resentful every day. Good luck

Looney - online shopping is fab ESP as sexy driver carries all stuff to kitchen

Hope your stuff arrives from Amazon - Db is waiting for something and they swore it would be delivered by mon eve and still not there :(

Maybe you news to put coats/shoes on if still got kids at 6.20 and you finish at 6 :)

Blondes - I ordered a big shop the other week, lots of extras incase we were snowed in. We are up a flight of stairs - but hey ho, delivery guys are usually fit youngish blokes - no worries. Of couse, it was a short, slight built woman in her (I'd say) 50's... I felt bad. I couldn't even help as I wasn't supposed to be lifting anything at all. I did offer her the use of the bathroom, hot drink, biscuits ....

Chipping - never had a female driver - tbh need a strong man to carry all the bottles of wine milk, squash, fresh juice , fizzy water etc

Is that really sexist of me?

When they deliver to work driver knows pit house well and mb gets a lot delivered and normally mad woofa is being annoying - but delivery man always brings a bribe bone to give to him

Bribery works on dogs as well as family/friends

Blondes - my shopping had several 5 tlr bottles of water, 2 boxes of wine, soft drinks, cleaning stuff.... squash, potatoes - you name it, if it was heavy it was being delivered - and yes, sexist or not, I thought 'Oh God, it's a woman - a small built, older (as in older than me, not older)' and I felt so uncomfortable about it. I know she took the job on etc but in this climate, it's not necessarily what she is trained to do or wants to do is it. I mean, I don't care who delivers it if they want to do it, but I felt bad incase she took the job on because there wasn't anything else available....

I still feel bad - but you can't ask them for a young fit bloke to deliver it and my delivery notes state it's up a flight of stairs.

I think I almost killed her with kindness - but she didn't want a drink/biscuit/bit of fruit/loo... she needed to get on with the next delivery.

(I'm sure this will end up with me being pulled apart in the feminism section, but it's how I feel - call me old fashioned possum).

Well I'm obviously in the minority here but as someone who used CMs for years I really wouldn't have a problem with this - it's a once a year Christmas shop and the weather has been crap which makes things difficult for everyone. I chose a CM for a more "real life" experience and if that meant the kids were occasionally less than stimulated in a tick the box kind of way, well that's real life.

If you want to know that your children are in the same place at all times use a nursery - I feel really sorry for CMs who do a fantastic job for crap money and now have the threat of being "reported to Ofsted" looming over them all the time.

I don't understand why taking a child shopping is such a BAD thing? I see why letting a 2 year old nap for long time is bad...and the stranger in the car...that's VERY bad.

But a trip to the shops? It's ok surely? DOes EVERY day with the minder have to be eductional?

I know you pay a minder...but if the child ws home with you...then she'd be going shopping a lot!

Depending on who the other person in the car was, I wouldn't have a problem with this.
Like SunnyDelight, I chose a childminder because I didn't want the kids to be in an institution (nursery) from a very young age, I wanted them to be in a home environment.
They do the school run, shopping, toddler group...everything that I would do normally.
Occasionally, the childminders Mum or Husband will look after the kids if she has a doctors appointment or parents evening or something. They are both CRB checked for this purpose.
My 2 kids went into to town with her several times to do her Christmas shopping - she works 5 days a week and just like me doesn't want to go at the weekend when it is very busy.
I'm not worried about them being bored on odd occasions, but acutally they never are and love doing things with her.
If you have other issues, then that is different, but this particular one I don't see as a problem (so long as you can resolve who wasin the car with your child when they were asleep).
Sleeping in a car seat for 2 hours really isn't a problem for a 3 yr old either. If mine fall asleep in the car, I leave them there (in our driveway in view of the living room) until they wakeup.
Paying while a child is at school all day is another matter - I think normally you would have a before and after school contract, as you are not preventing the CM from loooking after a pre-school-age child. Paying while a younger child is at nursery is normal (we pay half) as the CM can't look after anyone else in this time, and it is your choice to send her there too.

Nice to hear a rational and reasonable voice Northerner.

However I must point out that a childminder CANNOT and SHOULD NOT leave children with anyone else unless its an emergency.
The only people they could leave them with is a registered assistant (who is designated on her certificate) who has gained their 12hr pedadtric first aid and/or another childminder.

A minded child should be within sight or sound at all times.

This 'rule' protects not just the child but the adult. Quite apart from safeguarding and first aid there is a matter of insurance as well.

Unless I really had to I would have either done my shopping online or got hubby to do it. NO WAY would I take the children. Yes it is a learning activity when its quiet during the day for a few bits of shopping.

These days most supermarkets are open 24/7 so couldn't the cm go after work?

Am off to a playcentre to wear the little darlings out and feed them too!!

Happy Christmas to all cms and parents on here xx

Pippin - I hate all of this Ofsted crap. Northerner & her CM are both happy with their arrangement - they are her children, she doesn't need telling who she can and can't leave her own children with. There are less regulations about leaving a child at home alone than there are about who you can leave them with - it's bloody madness.

Using an Ofsted registered childminder should be a choice.

ikwym chipping - feel the same :( - but to them its a job paying shit nmw wages

mimosa - what bugs you more - the fact the cm went shopping or the fact she left your 3yr asleep in a car while shopping?

i really feel sorry for cm,they get the brunt/blame of everything and so many parents seem to be dissatisfied with their cm,while the cm is trying to please everyone

the job i do as a nanny is the same as in caring for a child while parents at work but so different in many aspects and there is no way i could every become a cm and get the grief most of you lot do :(

police and news say dont drive unless have to,and tbh most of have to drive whether to get to work/school/shops - far better to drive during the day rather then in the evening when temps drop and roads become sheer ice

BHMF - the thing that distressed me most was

• She took my children on an unnecessary 34 mile round trip in very dangerous driving conditions - I had done the same trip to get to work earlier that day - and it was dreadful, I skidded everywhere and I was so relieved that I didnt have the children in the car with me. Their safety was not paramount to her at that point - her xmas food shopping was.
• My children dont enjoy a big food shop - I love the idea of what some of you have said about making it educational and interesting to the children, but having spoken to my son who went around with her - he didnt have any involvement with her. Also, as I said, my 3 dd stayed in her car seat for 2 hours min - how unpleasant for her. She would have hated it
• A third person was with them - I have no idea who this is

and they stayed with my daughter in the car, (along with cm hubby) -She has never asked me if it was ok for her her to take the children to the supermarket (or anywhere) When we were setting up the contract - she didnt say she would be taking them out. I thought if she would take them somewhere - she would have ok'd it with me first.

• Also it transpires, that they ate chocolate on the way home!!!! My kids love chocolate and I do let them have it, but only after a meal........(trying to be good!) She know this because we have spoken about snack options! So i was a bit pissed off about that - although the kids thought it was great. However know they think its ok to have chocolate at any time - so I have to re-establish that rule wtih them now
• lastly - I think if she is being paid for looking after my children - then their needs must come first. Some of you may not agree with that - but thats the beauty of this discussion forum - is that we can see things from another perspective , we are all different after all.

On reflection, I have gained some perspective and your replies have helped me understand that I have an underlying problem with this cm. Lots of you have mentioned this and you are right.
So I am going to give notice to my cm, and I have decided to reduce my hours at work so I work 10 -2 and then I can do the pick up/drop off. Its a shame, as I know there would be a perfect cm out there for me, but in my village - there are only 2 cms who do the village school. And the other cm if full.
Financially I wont be much worse off anyway - but its just a shame that my first and last experience of using a cm wasnt what I was hoping for

Thanks for all the insightful comments

I think you've made the right choice. I would have been lived on this incident alone without any others.

Its things like this that ruled CM's out of ever being a contender for childcare for me.

to be fair, you prob left for work/did that road 7/8am just as i do going to work, and my journey was horrendous

fast forward 7hrs later and my road was a lot better iyswim

sorry i thought the adult you didnt know in the car was dh,not that there was a 3rd adult - so yes you need to get cm to clarify who they were

When we were setting up the contract - she didnt say she would be taking them out. I thought if she would take them somewhere - she would have ok'd it with me first.

again as i said before a cm is self employed and her own boss and can go where she wants iyswim WITHOUT checking with the parents first

surely you would reliese a cm would go out of the house/go places?

either way, im sorry your 1st go with a cm hasnt worked out, seems a shame that you will have to adjust your hours,but least you are lucky enough to be able to do that, rather than lose your job

and maybe another childcare option is available - maybe a nanny (woc would be cheaper) esp if you have been paying £90 a day for a cm or after school clubs etc

but trust has been broken so you need to give notice

Looking at your last post, I think you are right. You are not happy with this childminder and you are not going to be happy with that type of care, as you don't have a high level of control.

Childminders provide a service, while they may try to work in partnership with parents, they juggle the requirements of all the parents involved. That can result in your children doing things which they wouldn't do with you.

The lack of childcare is one of the problems of living in a village. Choice is limited. I prefer village life (having spent most of my childhood in a city) but it does have some drawbacks.

Sounds like you are looking to change the work-life balance, for which your children will be grateful. Sometimes it takes an event to make you think about what it is you really want, what is really best for your family. Working 10-2 sounds ideal. Hope your work agrees to it.