Support thread for those of us who are requesting an ELCS after a previous traumatic delivery

[withorwithoutyou]

Hello everyone.

I have noticed a lot of threads regarding requesting ELCS lately, probably because I am in the process of trying to request one myself!

I just wondered if it might be useful for us to have a support thread where we can talk this all through as I know it can be a challenging process to go through.

Can I please also ask in the nicest possible way that anybody contributing to this thread can respect our desire for ELCS over VB? Thank you!

Anyway, I'll start - I have one DD, born 20 months ago by forceps after failed ventouse. She weighed 9 pounds 11 and I am concerned this one will be heavier! I am 30 weeks and have my first consultants appt tomorrow where I will be requesting an ELCS!

I know, this time next week - how exciting! I'll definitely come and report back. I don't do blackberries/iphones etc. though, so don't worry if I don't appear for a few days (until I'm home). That's all assuming I make it that far of course! I started labour at 39+4 last time, and c-section is scheduled for 39+5. Eek!

ealey - got everything crossed for you make sure no curries, no sex, no pineapple, no stairs,no hot baths errrrm cant think of any more things that are meant to bring labour on So excited for you!

Thanks! I know - I'm resolutely sat on my arse doing absolutely nothing!

ealey I presume you are the same as me - if labour starts before the elcs then you are to head straight in asap and they will do a c-section then and there? One twinge and I will be in there so fast they'll be stunned a whale can move so quick!

Mine is scheduled for 39 weeks exactly and DD went 12 days over so I am hoping not to kick off early ...... but the fear is still there!

I'm another one who is excited now I have my date. Off to see maternity psych again this afternoon to discuss DD's birth. She asked me to bring a photo of DD just after the birth and one of her now. I find it really hard looking at photos too. Especially when I know how long the recovery is going to be for the pair of us!

DD looks totally beaten up in the one post birth. Forceps bruises everywhere on her face and head. I cannot actually find any I have printed out - they are all stored on the laptop and I never look at them.

Lovethesea - I really feel for you re: pictures after the birth. Its just taken me by surprise how emotional it made me feel to think of those photos (I dont look at mine either)

WRT labour starting before 39 weeks - I have been told if labour is rapid and early I may just have to accept a VB, but like you, first signs of any twinges I'll be knocking the door down asking for my section!

ealey- I'm alreadydoing the sitting on arse thing and Ive another 8 weeks to go lol

Lovethesea - yes, I have to head in straight away anyway because the baby is in an unstable lie, so would have to be checked as soon as there's any sign of labour. Once there and if the baby is head-down, then it's up to me if I proceed with the c-section as an emergency or not. I'd play that by ear depending on how things are going - I'm certainly not going to labour for days and days again, but if I was already 7cm on arrival then I might think about it! My main worry is that the hospital is a 30-40 minute drive away (our local hospital is only 5 minutes away, but I couldn't face going there again after last time so checked into a hospital with a better reputation for decent care).

30ish I am on your due in May thread! Didn't see you on here until people were responding to you.

My elcs was 39+3, I wanted to wait til as near 40wks as I dared for the growth etc of the baby. She yelled like a trooper when they brought her out and had apgar scores of 9 and 9 so she was in good form.

MILS dont get me started on those!

I always knew I had a low pain threshold and would need to go through the hospitals drug selection and that proved right for my first child but like someone else said on here, I healed after the physical pain, the mental scarring is a whole different matter. A lot of women/people will say "well he/she is here now and thats all that matters" and yes that is true but its also true that we have gone through a harrowing and traumatic experience and its not a simple as brushing it under the carpet.

I feel quite emotional for all of you, I am so happy and I really hope the experience is as brilliant for all of you. I really think its helping my physical recovery as well.

Hi ladies

I feel a bit of a fraud for posting on here, as although traumatic for me, my births seem tame compared to yours!!

I'm 30weeks pregnant with DC4, and my last 2 births were not a walk in the park. In short form, all was going well until I actually gave birth, and then I had fairly big PPH's (post partum heammorage). With DC2, it was like a scene in casualty, and I was a bit out of it and wasn't sure what was going on, all I know was that there was blood everywhere and they struggled to find a vein to get the oxytocin (i think) in. Made recovery after labour quite long, as I refused a transfusion, so took a while for my iron levels to recover. With DC3 things were put into place to manage it if I had another PPH, and I had to deliver in hospital. ALthough this time it wasn't quite as crazy as they knew it might happen, I had a heavier bleed this time around.

They are not sure exactly why I bleed so much, but could well be down to my big babies (last 2 were 10lb 10oz and 9lb 13oz)

Anyway, this pregnancy I have just been a wreck of worry, can't get the thought of labour out of my head. The worry that it will be worse or that I don't get all the precautions put in place are driving me crazy!!

I think I want to ask for an elcs, the risks of PPH are no worse in a cs than a vb, and if they can't stop the bleed I'd have to be taken into theatre anyway. I'm worried that I don't have enough of a reason for requesting it? I saw my consultant at 17weeks and they were so blase about the whole thing and wanted to wait and see!! I don't want to wait and see, I want to have a plan in place.

Like I say I know my births probably seem easy to most of you, but I just can't get teh fear to go away

Anyone think I've got a chance of being agreed a elcs??

I don't see why not - if you have ended up with long, slow recoveries and in theatre anyway for your last two births I would think arguing you would rather start out there in a controlled way would be totally reasonable.

I thought a major indicator of possible PPH was a previous PPH too? So surely 2 of them would suggest it is far more likely for you than someone who has never had one?

Ask for another appointment as soon as possible - given you are 30 weeks already - maybe get on to the consultants secretary to organise one? Or through your GP? Or mw? Depends who you think will act for you.

Insist you are anxious and seriously stressed by the risks of another PPH and want to have a serious discussion now about an elcs v.vb for your and your baby's health.

I'd read up on the risks of vb and PPH and elcs and PPH and take notes to the meeting with your questions on. Be confident and clear but not ordering them - if your consultant dismisses your concerns or doesn't answer your questions well then ask to be moved to another consultant.

You might go over it all and choose to have a vb but at least it would be with confidence that it is the right choice for you and that there is a plan in place for possible PPH.

Thanks lovethesea

I didn't end up in theatre with the previous two, but it is a definate risk, if they can't stop the bleeding.

I have another consultants appointment at 32weeks, so I will definately talk to them about it then. I just never seem to be able to get my point across and find myself sitting there agreeing to everything they say. I then come away feeling like I should've said more!

The risk for a PPH is previous pph, I would be very surprsied if I didn't have one this time. The mw said that after having 1 you might not necessarily have another, but risks go up quite a lot as i've had 2.

Hi Doodlexyz and welcome - those sound like traumatic births to me, I'm sorry you've had to go through PPH twice

I would definitely badger to see somebody.

All through this pregnancy I have been badgering to see someone becuase, as you say, people tend to be blase and dismissive when you try to bring up your concerns.

I spent my entire 30 week consultants appt (which I had been pestering for for ages) in tears and the consultant said there had been a failure of care for me to get to that point without anyone recognising or discussing how distressed I was about the whole thing. It wasn't for want of trying to explain!

So my advice would be just to make an appt and go along and have your say, as soon as you possibly can. One thing I've learned is if you don't ask you don't get.

Good luck and keep up posted.

Hi doodlexyz welcome to the thread - as others have said they sound traumatic births and if you dont ask you dont get! Most of us have been dismissed by some one or other but if you keep trying someone will listen in my experience. The midwives were dismissive of me regarding my fears (one said "oh well you've had a big baby 'through' you now so it'll be fine this time !!) But the consultant didnt even say anything negative just agreed with me and said it was a perfectly reasonable request to have c section! So just keep trying.

You are 1 week behind me so we may end up having sctions at similar times depending on your particular hosptials policy on ELCS (mine will only perform one after 39 weeks - some do it at 38)

Had my maternity psych appointment yesterday and cried my way through an entire box of their tissues (cheap thin ones mind and I do have sinusitus still ...).

Was actually really a relief to be talking in depth about the birth and the psych is the first person officially who has ever said 'I am sorry you had such an experience'.

I realised that it was the dismissive attitude before labour, during it from the mw attending me and on the postnatal ward that combined to make me feel so powerless and worthless. I had the right gut instincts about DD's position being wrong - saw my GP and mw's twice in the days before labour to check it but they all dismissed it as not an issue as she was head down. I'd felt her move sideways. I knew it wasn't 'right'. But as a firsttimer I had no power with them, no one listened.

In labour the mw misdiagnosed the position again in her internal exam and so embarked me on 11 hours of futile pain with incredible distress until DD's own distress showed up in her heartrate crashing and we rushed to theatre. The mw refused to examine me when I felt the pain deepen after a couple of hours and lied about the doctors putting me on drips if I wasn't far enough along. There was no reasons to speed me up, I was in labour naturally and at worst the examination would have shown I was the average 1cm/hour firsttimer. I wanted more pain relief but because I didn't know how far I was I couldn't argue for it. The final straw was the 4 hours I was in second stage by her reckoning (I think it nearer 6 from the change I felt in my body that she wouldn't check) and removing the G&A, my only pain relief, for the last 2 hours to 'help me focus'.

I felt so locked into the pain. So paralysed. If I could've shouted, screamed, sworn or thrown things someone would've helped. But instead I shut down and drowned under the intense pain that never had a break because of DD's OT position.

I realised that my experience was the most powerless I have ever been in my life. The most intense and nonstop pain ever with a gut feeling that it wasn't going right and the person meant to be helping me stood by and followed her own agenda of doing it by the book. I was expected to put my trust in the hospital staff and follow their direction - and I did, I did all they asked before labour to be ready and non intervention as much as possible. I was a 'good girl' and did as I was told. But I feel that trust was not returned. No one trusted that I might have a point in what I was saying and everyone acted the expert who doesn't need to listen to the ignorant firsttimer.

Sorry for the ramble! Anyway - in short, an experience that many women find empowering and an amazing achievement (birth) left me feeling ignored, unworthy of care or relief from suffering and dismissed.

The psych was also very pleased I have booked appointments with the consultant and anaethetist again to go over all the details before the elcs. I am determined to take as much control as I can before I am in pain so I can argue my case if needed. I will not be stuck on a postnatal ward with someone only giving me paracetemol if I am in a lot of pain. They do a spinal for the op, one volterol suppository and then just paracetemol for most people. They say that's all people need. Fine and I hope so - but I want the anaethetist to agree a plan if I am not so lucky. I want a named person to be quoting if I need more pain relief postnatally. I don't want to have pain for no reason when the memories of it are so strong. I am so done with pointless pain and think it also totally screwed up the chances of breastfeeding working for me.

That was a lot more detail than I intended! I do feel my mind is clearing though and I think after this next birth I will be much more able to move on.

Wonderful thread. May I join too please? I'm also popping up on a number of threads as I'm 27 weeks pregnant and trying to decide between a VBAC and an ELCS.

The story of DS's birth... I went into what we thought was early labour on the Fri with off and on back and tummy pain. I was suprised how bad it was as normally have a high pain threshold and I was finding it unbearable at times - and no other mothers had ever really complained of the amount of pain they had at this stage. Phoned hospital and said it was normal.

6pm Mon: had checkup with midwife, she thought everything was ok. By 9pm started getting contractions every 15 mins. Then started seeing a small amount of blood and getting bad pain between contractions. At about 11.30pm I called hospital, they still said it was normal and told me to take paracetamol, monitor blood loss and call back in an hour. By midnight i was in agony BETWEEN contractions! I told DH that I was really worried something wasn't right. Called hospital and they finally asked me to come in for monitoring.

Strapped me up to monitor, first test came back ok and the midwife was talking about us going home. Checked me and I hadn't dilated at all. But then (thank god) the registrar said she wasn't 100% happy with the monitoring results and would like to do one more to be on safe side. That one was scary - his heart rate was not looking good.

After escalation very quickly thru several medics, they told me they didn't know what was wrong but they had to get the baby out straight away via EMCS.

When they tried to pull him out they realised what the problem was (I'd rather not say what it was as it's so rare anyone who vaguely knows me/the story will be able to identify me from it!) but still struggled to pull him out and ended using forceps thru the CS incision. They told me afterwards that he may not have made it if they hadn't got him out when they did (which of course is the last thing any mother wants to hear as they're handed their gorgeous new son.) The fear of 'what if' has haunted me ever since.

Sorry to go on for soooo long but it was quite cathartic to write that.

The weeks after the CS were great. No issues with the pain, breastfeeding or anything which makes an ELCS very tempting but I'm struggling to make a definite decision. So far, although I've been encouraged to try for a VBAC, the consultant said it was ultimately my choice (we'll see!)

brightredballoon and others who have recently given birth via ELCS - Congratulations !! V interested to know if with your ELCS:

If you've had a CS before, did you find the pain/healing worse second time round?

Did you find BFeeding any harder?

Did you miss the post-birth hormone high? I still had that last time but I guess that was because I did go into labour?

Brightredballoon congratulations!

Reading other people's birth stories makes me feel so much better - I felt like such a failure and so isolated last time! Other people's positive birth stories made me feel so inferior. It is terrible that many Drs, consultants and MWs have very ittle time to listen to our concerns and think that they always know best. I knew in the very early stages of labour with my DD that things were not going well and was told by a MW that i would probably end up having a section days before I eventually had an emcs.

I have had my last MW appointment this morning. She was actually wonderful and even said that it was great that I was having an elcs as she thinks it is really important and empowering that new mums are listened to and their concerns taken seriously. Where was this MW when I had my DD? I will come back and let you all know how my elcs goes although imay take a few days as although I love technology, I actually hate mobile phones and very rarely use them - much to DHs disgust as he thinks I should have one glued to my hip at ths stage of my pregnancy!

Lovethesea - Well done on getting through your appt with the pysch. I'm so glad someone has finally recognised what you went through.

I can completely relate to so much of what you said regarding not bad positioning, not being listened to and unnecessary pain. Especially the feeling of just being paralysed by pain that just doesn't feel 'right'.

I have a meeting to debrief my notes tomorrow. I've had a look again at my notes and I think I've found one of the main reasons for my now complete distrust of midwives.

I had an epidural at 5cm but when it wore off about 3 hours before DD was born the m/w refused to top it up, even though I was in so much pain, and I could feel when I was pushing that DD wasn't moving, she was just getting more stuck.

On my epidural record, however, the m/w has described me as being in no pain whatsoever.

So she basically took the decision to halt any pain relief, and then lied about it and said I didn't need any anyway. I think that must explain why the Dr didn't bother with any pain relief when she did the forceps and episiotomy. Ditto why the SHO just started stitching me up and I had to beg for gas and air and voltarol. I suppose the m/w had recorded that I had a fully functioning epidural in place, even though it had worn off 3 hours earlier.

I don't have any trust in midwives at all now - especially as in this pregnancy they seem to be pushing me towards a drug-free birth. I don't want a drug-free birth, I know I can't handle it. I don't see how I can ever trust them to help me during a natural delivery given that I know how biased they are and that I am sure they won't support me in any of my choices.

Oh - one thing I also remembered is that the same m/w, when telling me I couldn't have any more drugs said it was because "it will just make your pushing even more rubbish than it already is". No wonder I have a complete lack of confidence when it comes to giving birth!!!

Sorry, that was long!

Cakeandroses, hello and welcome! I'm so sorry to hear of your experience. Thank god they delivered your DS in time, but no, not exactly what you want to hear as they hand him to you. I can totally understand your worries about a VBAC. It's encouraging to hear you recovered well and that you had a post-birth high. I definitely didn't have one of those!!

30ish - hooray for your m/w!

cakeandroses, welcome to the thread!

I never had a post birth high either, in fact, the opposite. Hoping I get one after my ELCS but happy to settle for just feeling relatively human!

Lovethesea - can relate to a lot of what you posted. I am so glad you got something positive from the maternity psych, its giving me a push to contact the maternity counsellors I was given details of, I think Ive been so distrustful of everyone in the medical profession/associated with the maternity unit, that Ive dismissed the idea of even seeing the counsellors as I thought they would be as bad IYSWIM.

30ish - what a lovely sounding midwife! :-)

withorwithoutyou - no wonder you dont trust the midwifes. Very sad reading all these tales at how let down we have been by midwifes.

cakeandroses in answer to your questions:
I have had 1 normal birth and 1 csection (crash section with my 2nd child). Recovery this time is, so far, 100% better. I am not bruised like I was with my previous section, my scar is smaller and neater and I was eager to look at my scar rather than last time i was terrified of it and cried everytime I saw it.
Breastfeeding after my crash section was ok, he was a natural, this time my DD2 has also been good so far and each time my milk came in 2 days after birth.
I think i am still on the post birth hormone high!

Lovethesea sounds like a very intense, but cathartic session that you had. Reading your post has been really helpful for me; it's helped me to identify feelings that I've not been able to articulate. I can really relate to what you are saying about the photos - I feel awful looking at pictures of DS with his haemotoma. I too knew that his positioning was wrong, but was dismissed as a first-timer. Thank you for your post.

cakeandroses, welcome to the thread. So sorry to hear about your birth experience. It really strikes me that a lot of midwives/doctors seem to take the attitude that if you are giving birth for the first time, you don't really know anything and your opinion should be overrided. This seems to ring true with your post as well withorwithoutyou.

It feels quite empowering to be taking control of this birth from the outset and I really do feel like I'm actually being listened to this time round.

cakeandroses a health visitor told me 5 days after DS's birth (just in time for baby blues) that, 'Really, we're lucky to have you both here.' That has haunted me too.

Well done on your appointment Lovethesea, it sounds really helpful. Much better than just having some midwife go through your notes defensively with you. Hopefully this will set you free to look forward to the arrival of your new baby. I'm only just beginning to appreciate that I'm actually having a baby since getting my c-section date!

I'm horrified by the behaviour of some of your midwives, especially yours withorwithoutyou. That must surely constitute a case for severe discipline at the very least. Did you ever complain about her? I know it's the last thing you feel like doing at the time. My mum ended up complaining about my anaesthetist with my permission, I just couldn't face it. I'm glad she did as it had consequences for him, which made me feel better. At least other mums wouldn't suffer at his hands.

I must say that that I've been very lucky with all the midwives I've seen here across both pregnancies (and I've seen a lot!). They were all very sympathetic and kind and did their best, but I was a victim of both hospital protocol (hence their refusal to admit me for 4 days) and overstretched resources. I resent the fact that I was abandoned during labour even once admitted to hospital (I still think I could have had a much happier outcome if I'd had a midwife to work on different positions with me), but I also understand that there were probably more urgent cases at the time as I was the last person admitted before they closed their doors. In fact, we must have been through the hands of at least 20 health professionals that day, 19 of whom were wonderful. I just don't trust the random aspect of the whole system this time, having experienced how easy it is to fall between the cracks of an overstretched unit. More than anything I just want to be treated with respect and like a human being this time.

I just had my final midwife's appointment, and she was very supportive. Funnily enough, I got chatting to a woman who'd just had her 2nd baby in the waiting room. It turned out that she was a midwife and that she'd chosen an elcs for her 2nd baby, and said that it was a great experience. It's always nice hearing that coming from a midwife!

p.s. I don't mean that she actually 'had' her baby in the waiting room obviously...

Wow Ealey, interesting to hear that a m/w chose an ELCS - I suppose as well as all the good birth m/w's do also see many that aren't so great.

Sorry, and to answer your question Ealey - no, I never complained about the m/w. To all intents and purposes she was very nice and sweet to my face, it's only when I reflect on it afterwards that I realise what she did.

Thinking about it, she came on after a shift change when I already had my epidural and proceeded to tell me all about her friend who thought she was a complete failure for having an epidural

With hindsight, I realise she quite clearly had an opinion and an agenda and decided to follow it.

Crazily enough, I actually sent a thank you card to the hospital naming the m/w and the obstetrician for their support. At the time I was so grateful that DD and I had both survived and so convinced that absolutely everything that went wrong was my fault.

Some kind of Stockholm Syndrome I think! It's taken me a long time to understand her part in it.