Homebirth - Midwife does not support our birth plan/ wishes

[QueenG]

My husband and I have planned for our second home birth experience, which we hope to be any day now!

I am feeling very dissapointed and a little anxious now, as my midwife does not fully support our birthplan wishes. She said she; ' will not allow my husband into the birth pool' or allow him to deliver/catch our child!

I didn't get any valid reasoning and sense that she is just very stong minded and set in her way. Fortunately, my husband is also a strong character and I trust he'll deal with things to ensure we have a happy relaxed birth.... the way way we want it! I just wish he didn't have this worry and hope there is no atmosphere and stree on the day.

Do you u agree or disagree with her? Do you know of any valid reasons for her objections?

We could end up having an unassisted birth...which may not be such as bad thing!

I was booked to have DS at a birth centre (Edgware) and their leaflet had a list of things to bring, one thing was trunks for Dad! If you get the chance to talk it through might be worth pointing out that some MLUs seem to encourage exactly what she wants to prevent...

People like that MW get people's backs up and then they have women hoping for an unassisted birth. Not something the NHS should foster.

You can always as already suggested write a letter telling the SOM that you do not want her at the birth at all. I did this with one midwife who was initially my named MW but lied and obstructed my request for a HB. A template for the letter is on AIMS.

Another thing you can do is to write your birth plan so that they are not even in the room unless you ask for them to be there. They can sit in the dining room for example. That is what I wrote in my birth plan as I had by then lost all trust in the NHS mw but didn't have the money to go indy. I suppose because I had already 'fired' one midwife, no one questioned this decision - because it is a perfectly reasonable one. See how they will like that kettle of fish.

In fact, you have good grounds for a complaint, especially since a second midwife has left you feeling that the first somehow has some legal basis for what she has said. Write to the Supervisor of Midwives or head of midwifery. They'll soon start behaving professionally.

I hoped and prayed and visualised my baby arriving before the midwives and that is exactly what happened. I had a lovely waterbirth and dh was the first person to touch our baby, besides me. Like Starlight, I brought her out of the water myself.

I hope you have the birth you want. best wishes.

she's being silly - for one thing you are unlikely to get her on the actual day so you may get someone who supports this totally!

agree that pointing out other MLUs support this may help.

I'm going out of my mind!!!

I'm now 40 weeks +7 today! First child was only 4 days overdue. I thought the second was supposed to come quicker!!! I had twinges weeks ago, so I was convinced she was coming early. So really I have been thinking; 'today could be the day', for about a month..... arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I've tried everything several times over curry, s*x, pinapple juice, long walks, bouncing on my ball, trampolining, rasperry leaf...

My first was a homebirth and such a lovely experience. I believe they won't let me have a homebirth if I go over 10 days.

Can they stop me. Can they really insist I go to hospital?

I'm booked to see the midwife tomorrow who wants to give me a sweep. I don't fancy it, and really wary of any type of interference.

What to do next...

"Can they stop me. Can they really insist I go to hospital? "
No, they can't. It is your decision whether to have a homebirth or not.
See the homebirth reference site "can I have a homebirth if..." section - there is a section for overdue. There is even a sample letter you can send to the SOM.

And you probably shouldn't even be classed as overdue till you are passed 42 weeks anyway. Anything between 38 (or is it 37?) and 42 counts as normal I think. Their 40+10 rule is jumping the gun.

Have you tried nipple stimulation?

And if you you don't fancy the sweep, just refuse it. 41 weeks is actually the average for first-timers I think (I know you're not, but shows you that thinking you are overdue at this stage is bloomin' ridiculous).

Thanks SmileHomebirth. I shall have a good read of this site....and remain insistant on my homebirth at least until i'm 42 weeks. Surely I can't go on any longer than that!!!!

I read about nipple stimulation today, so I've been having a squeeze.

HELP!!!

Well I had another appointment with my lovely midewife today, and it didnt go well.

We discussed my plan yet again and is not budging, objecting to everything and I feel very sad and stressed!

I am running out of time.

I have asked to spk to the manager who she is trying to arrange for me to meet today (which implies she is confident that she supports her standing). She has spoken to her about this already.

1. Videoing. She has spoken to all of the midwives in the community and not one is happy to be captured at any point on video!

I was really looking forward to capturing this special moment on video to treasure the memories and without the midwife key moments will be missed. We had agreed it will stop in the event of emergency.

1. She will not support him getting in the pool. She needs support outside and he can support me from outside. Less support at home and says it's safety concerns.

1. He is not allowed to catch the baby. I am or she is, but he is NOT!!! Did say legally not allowed. If anything goes wrong due to us thats fine but 'she cannot be responsible for a dad dropping the baby'!!!! (seems a bit unlkely in a pool!)

Wow....I am stressed. I cannot afford to pay for an independant .

Surely there must be a midwife in the community that is comfortable with our wishes... I did explain that they are wishes should there be no complications and would never be insistant if any kind of risk to the baby.

I can't get through to NCT, as was hoping they may be able to help.

I hope to get hold of the manager today, but no gaurentee she will be able to see me or get this resolved.

Here is what she put in my notes:

Birth plan discussed. Have advised that midwifery is set in statute and Dad will not be allowed to deliver the baby. All trust midwives are not happy to be video taped wilst working. For discussion with (manager) as mum is unhappy with this discussion. Have discussed that videoing could take place without capturing midwife/ examinations, but patient would like whole episode on tape. Dad unable to attend the appointments but equally unhappy not being encouraged to deliver the baby.

I had said 'catch the baby', 'I will deliver it!'....but she likes this term, presumable due to legals.

I think my baby is hanging on in there for a reason...

I went 40 + 10. Refused a sweep for 41 weeks and had I gone to 42 weeks, I would have requested expectant management.

no one was going to go messing around anything in my fanjo even if I went to 42 weeks.

I had an awful induction which really put me off VEs and any contact with my cervix, etc.

It is still your house, your pool, etc. They do not have any right to tell you when and where to labour and who can be in the pool with you.

You can have your husband in the same room with you while you labour and you do not have to call them in at all to touch the baby. How would they know who has touched the baby first or 'catched' the baby if they are not in the room?

they cannot prosecute you or your dh if all he does is touch the baby first. This is bullying to imply that he is legally unable to touch your baby first. The phrase: Who the fuck do they think they are? springs to mind at the moment but people will think I am bizarre or ranting if I wrote that.

If you would like to see my birth plan, CAT me or put your email addy here and I will email it tonight to you. I wanted them totally hands off and that is no one questioned it after they realised I knew my rights and was going to stand up for them.

This is lifted directly from the AIMS website:

Giving birth without a midwife or doctor
Some women feel so harassed or pressurised they lose confidence and trust in the midwife and feel they would actually be safer, and more likely to achieve a normal birth, if no local midwife was present.

Those women who have told the midwife that they are unhappy with their care and are considering giving birth without a midwife at all are often told that they are not 'allowed' to birth without a midwife and they will be prosecuted if they fail to call a midwife or come into hospital. This is untrue.

The woman herself cannot be prosecuted for birthing her own baby. There is no offence in law.

Confusion has been caused by a misunderstanding of the Article 45 of the Nursing and Midwifery Order 2001 which states that it is an offence for anyone who is not a registered midwife or doctor to 'attend a woman in childbirth'. This does not mean emergency help when a baby arrives too quickly, or unexpectedly and a husband or partner, taxi driver, shopkeeper or paramedic helps.

Since so many doctors and midwives misquote this Order you might like to know what it really says in section 16:

1.A person other than a registered midwife or a registered medical practitioner shall not attend a woman in childbirth.
2.Subsection (1) does not apply -
a.where the attention is given in a case of sudden or urgent necessity; or
b.in the case of a person who, while undergoing training with a view to becoming a medical practitioner or to becoming a midwife, attends a woman in childbirth as part of a course of practical instruction in midwifery recognised by the General Medical Council or one of the National Boards.
A person who contravenes paragraph (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale. (£5,000 to you and me)

The Order is intended to prevent people pretending that they have midwifery qualifications when they do not. It is not designed to prosecute those who are present at a home birth when a woman decides that she is not going to call a midwife or a doctor. As a result of this confusion AIMS lobbied the Department of Health asking for clarification. In September 2002 Jacqui Smith MP, the Minister of State at the Department of Health wrote to Julia Drown MP as follows:

'Attending a woman in childbirth, as opposed to general support given by partners and relatives, has been an offence against the protected function of midwifery since the Midwives Act 1902 and the fines are set at a level to reflect the seriousness of the offence. By 'attend' we mean, 'assume responsibility for care' and this is not intended to outlaw husbands, partners and relatives whose presence and support during childbirth are extremely important'.

Using this Order to threaten women in order to force them to comply with what the midwives or doctors want has had the unfortunate effect of increasing risks. Some women have sent their husbands or partners away while they gave birth, and truly birthed alone, to avoid what they understood to be the risk of the child's father, or their friends, being prosecuted.

Some women choose to avoid this scenario by employing an independent midwife to ensure home birth care they can rely on; or they decide not to call the NHS community midwife until labour is well advanced so the baby arrives before the midwife is able to arrive.

Britain used to have a superb domiciliary midwifery service. It is a sad reflection of the maternity services today that we have come to this. The service is very patchy, some areas still do provide excellent community care, others appear to have a policy of jollying the women along until 37 weeks and then begin to pressurise the woman into changing her booking and transfer to hospital. In Glasgow women are told that they have an 'allocation of two home births a month' and once they have exceeded that figure the remaining women will have to be delivered in hospital.

AIMS is concerned that so many women are refused the maternity care of their choice, contrary to the Department of Health's policy. Women are entitled to birth at home, indeed the latest Government report on caesarean section points out that 'healthy pregnant women with anticipated uncomplicated pregnancies should be informed that delivering at home reduces the likelihood of caesarean section'1

We are very worried by the numbers of women who have problems getting a home birth to the point that some women feel they have little alternative but to birth alone

AIMS will support any woman who is finding it difficult to get appropriate care for a home birth and we have often successfully challenged Trusts to provide an adequate service. If you are attended by a midwife in whom you have little confidence you have the right to dismiss her and the Trust has a responsibility to provide another, but do not battle on alone, contact AIMS and we will do our best to help you get the kind of care you want.

Have you talked to AIMS? They should be able to give you some advice, certainly on where your MW stands from a legal stand point.

From my personal perspective on your 3 points:

1. Videoing. From her attitude I wonder if the PCT has been stung previously when someone videoed a birth - the intention may only be for a memento, but if things do go wrong then suddenly it has the potential to become very strong evidence (although why the MW's should be afraid of that is another question...). Ultimately, though, the MWs do have the right to decline being filmed.

2. Your DH is not there to provide the MW with support -if she needs support then she should arrange it herself! You're the one giving birth in your house and if you need the support of your DH in your pool then what is she going to do about it? And its not as though he can't get out again if circumstances dictate, is it?

3. As we've gone through before, midwifery is a protected profession and, as such, it is illegal for anyone other than a MW to plan to act as such. However, as this thread has shown, it is not unusual or uncommon for the father to be encouraged by a MW to catch his baby - which suggests to me that whether "catching the baby" is included under the midwifery act is a bit of a grey area, or at least as an area to which a blind eye is often turned. I think AIMS is your best bet for getting advice on this one.

I really would recommend putting things in writing to the SOM and asking for a MW to be provided that will support you in these goals. Ask for a reply in writing or by email. I would be wary of trying to deal with it face to face - its too easy for them to claim they didn't say something. If you do have a face to face meeting take copious notes - make them wait if necessary to give you time - and summarise at the end of each point of discussion. Get them to sign your notes at the end to agree what you have discussed and any conclusions.

It wouldn't be at all unusual if your DC is staying put till you're a bit less stressed . Fingers crossed you can find some resolution.

(also meant to say - even if it is PCT policy not to have staff video taped, the attitude of the MW on the day may be completely different)

Oh FFS. I hope you are not doubting yourself. There is nothing in your birth plan that was no in mine and no-one objected.

Tell her if she doesn't want to be videoed doing examinations they you'll not have any examinations (I didn't).

Can you get an emergency doula? It will be the best money you spend and you should be able to get one easily at such short notice. She will protect your birthing space from any nutters.

Thank you so much for all this information. I will contact AIMS now as my next step.

I phoned a midwife unit earlier today , to ask to spk to another midwife about my birth plan . My midwife called me back very defensively. I said I wanted another oppinion. She told me that she was the SOM and every Midwife in Hemel and Watford area has the same oppinion as her!!!! She said the Matron has been asked to contact me, and I'll just have to wait for that the happen. She is in meeting and sure is looking like its not happening today!!!!

I then called the West Herts PCT and managed to get in touch with another SOM, whom I think heads up the whole area. She was good in the fact that the listened and left a meeting to take my call. She will also be trying to get hold of the Matron who manages our area to discuss this further.

I do feel that her feedback was more reasonable and discussed compromises rather than outright objections....however, its far from resolved. Here is her feedback:

1. Videoing: Of course is possibility that lady may not make it in time. Each midwife does have right to object, but perhaps compromise if hands get in way then that's ok.

1. Husband in the pool. Cannot see any objection to this. Perhaps need to keep an eye on it as inflatable pools can be put under more stress with two in the pool, midwives usually ask Dad to support mother from behind and take her weight. This also leaves plenty or room for midwives and clearer visibility of whats going on.

1. Catching the baby. This is the Midwives job. Can understand the concerns and would not be happy with midwife being handsoff at this stage incase baby isn't brought straight up surface quick enough. Suggested that they assist each other, and that her hands guide him in this activity! From what she has said she certinly wouldnt support the midwife not being in the same room.

1. Request midwife does not attend my homebirth. Understands that this may be preference, but due to staff rota and only a few on call each day, cannot be certain who will arrive. Sounded very much like I could not refuse her....but await clarification.

She is waiting to spk to Matron and will call me back to discuss this further.

It was suggested that we may consider Independant midwifery route, but unsure whether any exist in the area and implied it was unlikely due to certain insurance circumstances. Regardless, I don't have the time or money to investigate this route.

I guess time will tell what happens next. Need to get onto AIMS asap....

At one time I was really looking forward to my birth experience.

Mentioned necessary monitoring every 15 minutes or so. I think this is in early stages.

Can I refuse this then? DelsParadiseWife - Why did you refuse monitoring.

Foxytocin - would be very interested to see your plan. Not sure what you mean by CAT...but i'll try and suss it out

Just had a call back form Head SOM:

1. The system has my due date as mid April!!! . How the hell did that happen????

Every appointment we discuss weeks and due date. All over my notes including scan dates says 18th March!!!!

2.Getting in the pool. She had spoken to midwife who has lied and said not that concern was that she would be outside pool caring for my first child!! Huh....never ever had she expressed that concern. My plan clearly states we have a child who may be present during early stages, as we need to rely on friends to collect her, but this will be arranged and we do not want/ plan her to be present during the birth.

1. Accepts my request not to have midwife! contingency plan should my midwife be 1st on call - should I go into labour she has arranged for 2nd midwife on call to attend as 1st, and a second midwife will follow from another area. If all fails assured me that my Midwife is experienced and will remain professsional' during birth!

1. She is trying her best now to arrange for me to meet one or two other local midwifes to do a home visit tonight or tomorrow and discuss our birth plan. I really appreciate this.

1. videoing. The videographer will have to restrict shot to ensure midwive is not on film if it is her wish.

1. Catching the baby - no further discussion....assume that only comproise is that they do it together....and husbands assists midwife or is guided by her. Hope to get the chance to discuss this later with a new midwife.

Some progress....

Queen No I didn't refuse montitoring, though it is within your rights too. Personally I found it fairly unobtrusive because the midwive didn't move me at all, even crawled on the floor when I was in a difficult position.

I am soooo sorry about that feedback. It doesn't sound very helpful, despite her being more reasonable.

The dad out of the pool position sounds as though they will be trying to insist you give birth in a semi-reclining position which is crazy. SOME women like this position, but in general it is not optimal for delivery. Kneeling whilst leaning forward with the baby coming out behind is generally best. You can sit back once the head is out and deliver the rest forward. This is how the majority of women would do it if left in peace.

I know you have your heart set on a homebirth, but if you can get to the Edgeware birthing unit I think you might birth better there than at home in a rage. People come as far as Northampton apparently and they do something like 70% of the UK's waterbirths there.

ANd wrt bringing up the baby. That is just ridiculous. Even a father has instinct enough to do it right. And it doesn't have to be done quickly at all. There is a lot of time before the baby takes first proper breath, and in anycase he/she is still supported by the placenta, - unless they prematurely cut the cord of course.

Grrrrr, this thread makes me so angry. These MW's should know better.

And remember:

YOUR baby. YOUR DH. YOUR body. Touching any without your express permission is assult.

email me at yfforster at gmail dot com for copy of birth plan

Thanks foxytocin. I have emailed you.

I had a call tonight from a midwife in a neighbouring town who has no objections what so ever, and does not agree with her concerns or objections. What a relief! She's on call for me tonight but not over the weekend.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease,
'can tonight be my night!'....

QueenG I'd put money on tonight being your night. Baby's have a way of knowing when it is safe to come out. Go and get some rest and dream of yummy things to get those hormones going. Snuggle under the covers and talk happily to your baby.

Thanks DelsParadiseWife

For the first time today, I'm going to relax...veg on the sofa, and watch some TV. pizza is on it's way..... and then hopefully my baby

Thank you all. Your info and comments have really helped me through today.